Thursday, November 20, 2008
Shining light in the midst of darkness
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life." (John 8:12)
I have seen this story on other blogs. Reformed Pastor , David Fischler had it posted under Gay Brownshirts on the March!. But the best reporting of the incident I have found is at a Gay paper The Bay Area Reporter. The article is "Police escort Christians out of Castro" by Seth Hemmelgarn. Although the reporter, undoubtedly, did not intend to show how Christians might act in the midst of mob persecution that is exactly what he did.
When I first heard this report one of my first thoughts, I will admit, was what were these Christians doing there in the first place knowing that the gay community was in an uproar over proposition 8. But from this article I learned that the young people had been going to the Castro for three years and they had friends there.
As one of them stated when asked if they would go back, ""We have friends there. We love the people who live in the Castro, and in no way hold what happened Friday night against them."
I also wondered how they were conducting themselves in a place where they knew they might be unwelcome. They were simply praying and singing hymns.
This is not an easy read and the video, if you watch it, has unclear but obscene language in it. But it is good to know that those who inhabit darkness have seen God's light shining in their midst. May God continue to offer his mercy of love and forgiveness because of Jesus Christ.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
28 comments:
I donno, it's so sad... with though with so many literalists, Leviticus 20:13 really is scary. It seems that both sides have some heavy thinking to do. Pretty scary, hun TN? Perhaps I was not being so facetious after all....
I'm really sorry everyone... kinda glad I'm wandering around the desert.
Kinda glad I'm watching this blog, though.
I have to say I don't quite know how to address you. Interesting that you have a symbol for a name.
About Leviticus 20:13, remember Paul, in the Bible, tells us that the law was a school master to bring us to Jesus Christ. He died on the cross for our sins, and we are all sinners.We all need forgiveness and to be transformed by his grace.
Viola,
This can hardly be called "mob persecution". Listen to what they are saying:
"Stay out of our neighborhood if you don’t like us!”
Regardless of what you think about the sinfulness of their sexual behavior, I don't think this "mob" is complaining about the glare of too much light.
Carl
Carl,
I do believe you didn't read the article I linked to!
"The man hit Cloud over the head with the Bible, shoved her to the ground, and started kicking her legs"
Etc.
The energy behind the hatred is amazing. Societal tolerance, which it seems no one is arguing against, and most are willing to defend- seems to be code for complete acceptance as the equivalent of real marriage.
Lord have mercy...
dm
Meh. Completely non-violent.
Lest you think these folks being safely escorted out of the Castro are all innocence and light, perhaps it would be helpful to actually give people *all* the facts, Viola, rather than carefully editing out the fact that they were associated with Lou Engle and "Joel's Army" a group of Christian Dominionists who have, in the past, called for a return to execution, by stoning, of homosexuals.
Many of us who are gay have experienced much worse than yelling at the hands of Christians, just like them, so I don't have much sympathy, particularly for people who advocate stoning me to death.
Fortunately, even with hundreds of thousands of protesters in hundreds of protests last weekend, the level of violence was vanishingly small. Of course, any violence is too much violence, but then, holding an entire group of people responsible for the irresponsible actions of a tiny group is unfair.
Unless you all are willing to take responsibility for Fred Phelps and the Joel's Army folks?
Alan,
I don't usually say thanks to you but I do here. But first let me say that these young people even by a gay newspaper article show nothing but love and care. So their treatment is horrid, I stand by all I wrote.
However, you are partly right about what that particular group believes. I did some more googling. Here is an article at the Southern Poverty Center's Intelligence Report by Casey Sanchez who I have recently helped with material for another article. The article is on the idea of Joel's Army and Christian Dominionists'
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=964
I disagree with both of these groups and was one of the first authors to write on what was once called The Manifest Sons of God many years ago. I believe it is false doctrine. However I don't believe that those who hold to Joel's Army are actually Dominists.
And while I can't be sure I will have to look at their material I believe they are using militant terms in a spiritual way. I see that Sanchez's paper has some mis-information and some of his history of the movement is not complete. Also when I did my paper, around twenty-five years ago, I found so many different groups going so many different directions, that I almost threw up my hands in despair and didn't write.
The Manifest sons of God teaching has a long history and some form of that teaching appears about every twenty years. Anyway thanks for the heads up.
Alan,
You seem to like to bring up the stoning/execution of homosexuals. I am not familiar with either Fred Phelps, or Joel's Army, so I cannot comment on them. What I can comment on are the people that I personally know, and advocates whose works I have read, and none of them advocate the stoning of homosexuals. Those that do, which I do believe are out there, are a militant fringe.
The situation in the Castro district, is the makings of a riot, of a mob attacking the defenseless.
I do not know what these people usually say when they go to the Castro district, but if they had decided to simply sing Amazing Grace, I do not believe that they are advocates of stoning. They also said that they have friends there, the assumption being that the friends are homosexual. That does not sound like they hate homosexuals. They went there to support the Gospel, the good news that Christ came for all who would believe. I am thankful that there are people like that, who have sympathy for our fallen condition, and are willing to reach out to their fellow man.
This is a message that you say you embrace, that is the message of the Gospel. If so, I challenge you to show it by the spiritual fruit of your life, and not by the bitterness that comes from past experiences. We have all had terrible experiences in our lives, but it is important that we do not dwell on the past, and focus on our future in the Lord.
As you know, I think that homosexual activity is sinful, and I can't back away from that, but that does not mean that I think that homosexuals cannot be saved. It is our duty as Christians to reach-out to all mankind, no matter the race, creed, or color, and share the love of Christ's sacrificial death with them.
It is also our duty to minister to the newly saved, and help them to know the Law, so that they can walk away from the sins of their lives, for the law helps us to know where we are wrong. I am not advocating a legalistic Christianity, but a knowledge of what is right and wrong. Christ himself said that not one dot, not one iota will be removed from the Law, until He comes again, so what is in the law is continually right and wrong, from the beginning of time, until the end of time, for God is unchanging.
It is so hard to leave our own desires behind, and concentrate on the desires of God, but that is what we are called to do. Concentrate of those rewards that will never perish, that come from the Father in heaven, rather than those that make us feel good for a while here on earth. And that includes our own vanities, including our hates and desires, that are not the will of God.
You're welcome. Just trying to provide some perspective.
Again, any violence should be immediately condemned, but in this instance, there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support the allegations that there was violence involved. The cops didn't hear about it, and the reporter didn't see it. It's basically one person's word against another.
In any event, I believe that the Constitution gives us all the right of assembly, and no matter how wrong they are, (and no matter how much they apparently tried to instigate a response by parking themselves right in front of a memorial for someone who had recently died), I wish that they had not had that right taken away by angry crowd that gathered. No matter how righteous their anger, it doesn't excuse taking away someone else's rights to free speech and assembly.
All too soon, I fear, those rights to speech and assembly will be similarly voted away from LGBT people, if this sort of thing keeps up. Voting away equal protection was a brilliant move by the Mormons, et. al. because once you've done that, you can do just about anything to people. Pretty scary stuff. I just keep hearing Rev. Lou Sheldon's call to put gay people in "cities of refuge" ringing in my head.
"Voting away equal protection was a brilliant move by the Mormons, et. al. because once you've done that, you can do just about anything to people."
That is the big picture here.
That is not light in the midst of darkness. Rather, that is the heart of darkness.
The other point I was making is still true, I think. When Christians are being asked to leave a community because the members of that community have the impression that Christians do not like them, then they need to shut up and listen. Bad for business, yes. Anti-patriotic, sure. Against the law, sometimes. Even suspect of Communist propaganda makes sense at times.
But "not liking us", never. The Gospel properly ministered never gives that impression.
Carl
Carl-
Sooo, we crucified Jesus because we liked him, eh? He was just all sweetness and light...
At some point- not always initially, but always at some point- the cross is offensive. People shouldn't be obnoxious-- so how one presents oneself is important. But, it seems our master telsl us, as do his early followers- that following him is an offense to the world. Against the world for the world sort of stuff. All our idols are to be shattered in light of his Lordship in our lives. Even, especially, the ones we hold most precious- sexual, money, etc...
dm
I often see such reasoning used to defend Christians actions, and it always seems problematic to me.
That is, "Well, Jesus always did X! So we should do it too!"
Making excuses for Christians being offensive because Jesus offended the ruling authorities of his day is problematic because, as we should all realized, we're not Jesus.
He was justified in judging because he himself was without sin. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" means something quite different when it's uttered by someone conceived by the Holy Spirit, and is completely sinless. And, he was more than qualified to tell anyone anything he wanted, since all of creation was created through him.
We follow in his steps. We try to follow what he told us to do, knowing that we *can't* do what he did: we can't turn water into wine, or walk on water, or be resurrected on the third day after we die.
I think we, might do well to try to, perhaps, be a tad more humble when trying to emulate the behavior of Jesus, given that none of us is the Son of God.
Carl,
I don't think that the apostle Paul or any of the New Testament apostles or evangelist or any other witness to Jesus Christ would have stayed out of a neighborhood just because they were asked to leave because somebody didn't like them. In fact some times Christians live in neighborhoods where people don't like them because they are Christians. A Christians loyalty is to their Lord above all else.
On top of that I am just amazed, (but why should I be) that you seem to have so little care for the young people who went into the Castro simply to pray and sing.
Alan,
You are speaking apples and oranges-- doing the miracles Jesus did such as walking on water is not the same as telling some one they are in danger of hell fire as he did. And the apostles are good examples.
In Acts Paul tells Elymas the magician, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord." pretty strong huh?
Or what about Jude, "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long before hand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."(Jude 4)
I could go on but I won't.
Viola and Dave,
You are still not listening.
"Stay out of our neighborhood if you don’t like us!”
That is the complete opposite reason than the one you are posing. No evangelist in the Bible ever stood convicted of not liking the ones they set out to evangelize.
If preaching the Gospel makes people think you don't like them, you are not preaching the Gospel.
You KNOW this, right?
Carl
Carl,
People often don't like Christians when they preach the Gospel.
"But Peter and the Apostles answered,[the Jewish Council] "We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging him on a cross. He is the one whom God exulted to his right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentence to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
But when they [the council] heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them." (Acts 5:29-33)
Sorry,
I forgot to add that the people on the council being, cut to the quick, as it says is the same as the people saying that the Christians don't like them. It is a mis-perception because you have told them that they need Jesus. That Jesus has authority over their sin. It is also, I think in this case an excuse to vent their anger because they didn't get everyone to agree with them about homosex. They were reacting to the election.
Viola,
Is it the Lord that has so hardened your heart?
I can see that nothing I say will soften it, or convince you to show compassion in the name of the Lord. Perhaps, even, what I say only serves to harden it even more. So I will stop talking now, and leave the matter at the foot of the cross.
Carl
Carl,
Something I've come to suspect is that we do not necessarily see the world as it is, but rather we see the world more as we are. I would encourage you to think through the 'hard hearted' judgment you just leveled at Viola. You are not the standard- God's word is. Not agreeing with you, as if you bring a new revelation from God, is not really being hard hearted. And it seems that is the thing about which you pronounce Viola 'hard hearted' in your opinion.
As for me (you addressed me earlier), I understand your argument. I've heard your argument. I disagree with your argument. I think your argument is wrong. Full stop.
I will continue to tell you, when it comes up- when it is the topic of conversation- that sexual activity of any sort outside of man/woman marriage is a sin from which we are to repent. That God has far more for us than bondage- and that continually walking contrary to his expressed will is harmful beyond measure to our person (body/mind/soul). And that the Holy Spirit really does bring transformation to our desires through his healing touch, when we submit our lives to him.
If that is offensive - that Jesus really offers us freedom from what has us locked up- then, well- it may have more to do with the nature of the message, then the messenger. Its only through submitted lives, that we can find freedom. And the cross (submission of self to Christ) is offensive, in and of itself.
dm
Dave,
You are wrong. Full stop. You do not have a clue as to what God thinks. You delude yourself to think you do. Full stop. Hang in there, Carl. Self-righteous fundamentalists are not in charge of the world. Thank God. Full stop.
John,
Do you think you have a clue to what God thinks? And what do you base that on?
I assume you think you know what God thinks since you a) disagree with Dave and b) are convinced Dave has no clue as to what God thinks.
John Erthein
Erie, PA
Dudes and Dudettes, you all crack me up. With all the twists and turns how does anyone feel like they have any authority at all?
Remember Exodus 33:17-23
John,
Not righteous because of self, but righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ and righteous with his righteousness.
John E -> matthew 19:12, go for it, dude!
Viola,
Honestly, to me, your comment makes no sense as a response to mine. Care to clarify? I think you're trying to argue against something I didn't actually say or imply, so perhaps that's why I'm not understanding what you said.
In any event, just to clarify my point, if that is what you didn't understand, I'm saying is precisely what Dave Moody said in a later comment, "You are not the standard- God's word is. Not agreeing with you, as if you bring a new revelation from God, is not really being hard hearted."
Again, we're not Christ, so a little humility is in order once in a while.
Not sure why that would be a controversial position, but since you seem to be arguing against it, perhaps you could clarify your reasons?
Alan,
I believe I understood you quite well the first time, but this latest comment I don't understand at all. Do you want to clarify?
Post a Comment