Monday, November 24, 2008

Once again experience is touted as having priority over the word of God

A review of Professor Erwin Barron’s third installment, "The priority of experience in moral debate”

The last installment of Professor Erwin Barron’s three part article on homosexuality, the Bible, experience and ethical decision making is entitled, “
The priority of experience in moral debate.” It was posted Sunday on the Outlook and linked to at Presbyweb today.1

Barron’s last installment does not offer any new suggestions on decision making but is instead a conclusion of his two earlier pieces. He presents the experiences of both a More Light Church and a Confessing Church and once again concludes that they are making their decisions from experience rather than from the biblical text.

He, seemingly is not suggesting that each church made decisions from there own experiences, but that they must listen to each other's experience. Otherwise according to Barron's description they are already doing what he has suggested. This means that the people in the Confessing Church must listen to the experiences of the people in the MLP Church and they to those in the Confessing Church.

But the way Barron has set up his scenario, with his suggestion that people in the Confessing Church do not know any LGBT people, this simply amounts to the MLP people being the ones to offer new information. The Confessing Church people will have nothing to say, unless of course they turn first to the Bible. But of course most Evangelicals know LGBT people and have friends in their community. This is simply a false scenario which doesn't work either way.

Barron does, in this last installment, make minor use of two Christian ethicist, James Gustafson and Richard Hays. He writes that Gustafson “says that of all moral authority, human experience has ‘priority.’” Of Hays, Barron writes, “Conservative ethicist Richard Hays says that personal experience is a ‘notoriously tricky guide’ to moral authority because people are so easily self deceived,” and “Hays agrees that the experiences of a Christian community can lead to the establishment of moral norms that sometimes even contradict Scripture, but only ‘after sustained and agonizing scrutiny by a consensus of the faithful.”2

Therefore, Barron concludes “as long as we don’t become ‘experiential fundamentalists’ or ‘biblical fundamentalists,’ then these two sources can both guide us in our moral-decision making.”

Using Gustafson, Barron gives hardly any clues at all about the ethicist’s philosophical or theological positions The reader cannot be sure what it is Gustafson believes or in what position he places the Bible as a moral authority. On the other hand, Barron takes Hays’ negative positions about experience and uses them to bolster his own positive views about experience. And he does this while failing, once again, to explain where Hays places the biblical text in relation to moral authority. This seems to me to be, itself, unethical.

The title of my last review of Barron’s three part series was
May his word overthrow us and we be transformed by his grace:. I meant that as a prayer title. Reading his last installment, “The priority of experience in moral debate,” I return to my earlier title. We must allow our experiences to be overthrown by God’s word. We must allow our sinful natures to be transformed by the grace of Jesus Christ.

Human experience is important, of course, but our experiences are always partially shaped by fallen human nature and by creation, which also awaits our final redemption. We seek in the Holy Scripture a remedy for all brokenness. And find there a crucified Savior who calls us out of ourselves and into a redemptive relationship with him.

Within that relationship, within God's word, we find love, Christ's love given on the cross, Christ's justice bought on the cross with his blood, Christ's transforming power given by the Holy Spirit because of his bodily resurrection. And we come under Christ's kingly authority made known only in the Old and New Testaments.

“And he himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by his wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.” (1 Peter 2:24-25)

1 Presbyweb is an independent Presbyterian news source with the best coverage of Presbyterian news on the Internet. Hans Cornelder, the founder and Editor, writes of its content, “Voices from the entire Spectrum.” He not only links to Presbyterian news but also to news of other churches in the United States and around the world. And many of the articles he posts are unique to his site. It is a subscription site but well worth the low price.

2 As someone trained to write history and a researcher who was taught the importance of footnoting, I object to Barron’s use of these two ethicist with out giving a proper reference.

30 comments:

Anonymous said...

Ah, the School of Experience! How well we remember her lessons. It's powerful stuff, experience.

If we have experienced people of the evangelical commitment deny us what we desire and people from the liberal commitment give us what we desire, then we tend to detest the first and love the other. And it can be the other way around, of course. Experience is like that--a first class deceiver and tickler of our egos and banalities.

Experience is a prison. It can be a lovely prison, but it is still incarceration. If my experiences were my guide what a sad life I would lead! I don't think I could get out of bed in the morning with only my experiences to lead me.

I need more to live on.

May Christ free us from slavery to mere experience and give us Truth.

- said...

Ironically, many (most?) Pentecostals place their special emphasis on the direct personal experience of God (and Book of acts, Chapter 2). From where I stand, not sure either way really dictates moral ground.
Not sure your bifurcation is accurate, and one question: I know the Confessing Church as active resisters to Hitler, is this the church you are referring to?

- said...

just another comment so I can get follow ups (sorry!)

Viola Larson said...

Symbol,
The confessing Churches both Barron and I are referring to are a group of Churches in the Presbyterian Church USA. There are other Confessing groups in other mainline denominations. It means they are standing with the Confessions of the Church and hold to three particular statements that have to do with Jesus as the only way, the Bible as the word of God and marriage between a man and a woman only.

Pentecostals do emphasize experience which is okay if their experience doesn't contradict the words of Scripture. When it does they have gone beyond the Christian faith and are on dangerous ground. And in some cases it has happened. For instance, the Jesus only or United Pentecostals began with one man’s experience at an Assembly's of God Church camp. They believed that Jesus was the only name for God and rejected the persons of the Trinity. Of course the Assembly's of God disagreed with that an ejected them from the denomination.

God’s word always has the ultimate authority.

- said...

And so: "Pentecostals do emphasize experience which is okay if their experience doesn't contradict the words of Scripture."
Ah, the middle road...
Like, what happens if they do? Are they not real religions?
HAHA "Symbol"... not sure I dislike that... it's a pretty common 'internet' thing to use, though, btw.

leviticus 20:10? Hardly seems American...

Viola Larson said...

A religion is a religion no matter what it believes. On the other hand Christianity has always followed Jesus Christ as Lord and believe the Bible to be the word of God. A symbol on my blog is okay as long as you are not rude.

- said...

Oh thank you... not like a name matters anyway... how do you know someone is who they say they are anyway? Generally I think it's pretty bold of someone to list it anyway...
Can't say I don't enjoy good conversation! Really enjoy it, in fact.

- said...

I guess you don't have a good answer to leviticus.

Viola Larson said...

By the way, you wrote "leviticus 20:10? Hardly seems American," The Christian Church and America are not the same thing. And just to be very clear the punishments in that passage were meant for ancient Israel. As I wrote to you in another place, Paul, in the New Testament tells us that the law was a school master to bring us to Jesus Christ. there we can have forgiveness and have our lives transformed.

- said...

Actually I wonder if you're just not Christian enough... no really!

Viola Larson said...

I guess we were writing at the same time. I am trying to get my house clean for my very large family for Thanksgiving, so I keep coming and going to the computer. Here is a verse for you:
"Therefore the Law has become out tutor to lead us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith." (Gal 3:24)

Viola Larson said...

I didn't mean that the law was for Israel to be punished, I meant that the law was to be used by Israel in that way.

And I am not sure what you mean by what you just wrote.

I will probably be gone from the computer for quite awhile now.

- said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Viola Larson said...

I have just deleted the above comment because of rudeness. From now on all those who comment must leave their full name, city and state or I will delete them. I will also delete for rudeness and insult.

Suzanne said...

Viola, Thank you for your vigulance, clarity and faithulness to the Word. i'm sorry for what you're having to deal with on your blog. Have a great Thanksgiving day with family and friends. May God continue to impower you and your words. Sz

Viola Larson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Viola Larson said...

Thank you so much Suzanne. Note I have a new rule that everyone has to put their full name, city, and state and when they comment. I am sorry about that, I know who you are but some people are making it so hard to blog. I think it will help everyone.

I suppose its my subject matter.

Anonymous said...

Viola,

As you well know I too had to make people sign their names. We cannot have fruitful conversations with double standards for those who participate. I simply refuse anymore to 'dialog' (is it that?) with anonymous statements of any kind.

It's also a good rule in our personal lives as well. Interacting with rumors and inuendos is just bad policy all around.

May Christ richly bless your Thanksgiving!

Viola Larson said...

You are right, as usual Toby. You and your family have a good Thanksgiving.

Viola Larson said...

This is funny, I have been telling eeryone to sign their name city and state, but I haven't been doing it.

Viola Larson
Sacramento, CA

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I've had problems with identity theft and I am very reluctant to leave personal information on a public forum.

So I will just leave this one last comment and move on.

"Experience" is all we have. Experience is what makes you a Christian American living in Sacramento, speaking English.

If you had been stolen at birth and shipped to Yemen, your experience would be very different. You would be a Muslim speaking Arabic, happily complying with Sharia laws.

Or dead by now because of different health environment.

Everything you are and think and believe is based on your own experience. If you hold something to be true, it is >>you<< holding it to be true, and you do it based on >>your<< experience.

The human brain is so dependent on its own experience that if you deprive it of experience for any significant period of time it unravels. Sensory deprivation can lead to permanent psychotic breaks in a very short time. It's even used as a form of torture.

So I really don't understand how anybody can imagine that intentionally relying on personal experience is wrong.

In a culture we compare our own experience with those around us, because humans also need the affirmation of a community. Without that affirmation they learn do doubt their own perceptions and again are subject to psychotic breaks. That is the theory behind shunning and brain washing. What we believe to be real is so tied to our own experience and that of those around us that a person's perception of reality can be completely manipulated through social pressure.

With these facts in mind, I don't see how you can separate that which you believe based on "experience" from that which you believe based on some other standard. Even this "Truth" that Toby speaks of, what does he know of it outside of his own experience of it?

One last comment. What did Christ do in His incarnation, death and resurrection? If experience was not central to existence, then why did he choose to experience such a flesh bound form of existence? By choosing to be born, raised by his Mom, toilet trained, learn a local language, eat, drink, dress, chase girls (he was a teenager at one time) etc etc, He affirmed our human form in all its warts and glory.

It is that common experience that binds us together, and it is through that experience that we learn to trust this thing we call "the word of God".

Unless we recognize our utter dependence on our own experience to judge even the most basic perceptions of reality we can never learn to love our neighbor as ourselves, or respect our fellow human beings and serve them the way Christ has asked us to serve.

It is not the denial of our experience that leads us to Christ, but the humble admission that experience is all we have, so we lay it at the foot of the cross and pray to experience the presence of the Holy Spirit in every corner of our existence, so that the lens by which we see is Christ Himself.

God Bless

Carl

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

NOTE TO ALL READERS--

The commenter above that has stolen my name, profile and icon is NOT ME.

This sick person is an imposter. As a result, I have changed my display name and will shortly change my icon.

I'm sorry that my own name has been taken and I'm sorry that this individual feels it necessary to do this.

Viola Larson said...

Toby,
I am really sorry that happened to you. But I am very relieved it was not you. I copied the comment before deleting it to save in case you need it for any reason.

May the lord pour his blessings out on you for all of the insults, and this final one, you have had to endure because of your stand for Jesus Christ.

Reformed Catholic said...

Good grief ...

I would rather see honest disagreements out in the open than surreptitious postings by a symbol or an identity thief.

Viola, I'd post my name and such, but there is a good reason why I don't. FWIW ... Toby can vouch for me.

R.C.

Viola Larson said...

Reformed Catholic,
I have been in a conversation with Toby (about a thief) and I understand your situation. Please feel free to post here with out your address. But no one else may!

Debbie said...

Carl, Jesus did not become a human in order to experience and affirm our humanity. He became a human in order to be able to take the punishment for sin, which we all deserve, instead of our having to take it.

Debbie Berkley
Bellevue, WA

Chris Larimer said...

I'm away from my library for a week, so you'll have to deal with an uncited paraphrase of the great John Stott: Because God's propositional truth as revealed in Scripture is apprehended with the intellect, this faculty is more to be trusted than the faculty of emotion.

Thanks be to God that the LOGOS (rational principle organizing the KOSMOS) is also a high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses based on HIS experience.

Viola Larson said...

Thanks Chris,
I hope you had a good thanksgiving.

Sorry but now people have to give their name and city and stse.

Sacamento, CA