Tuesday, November 10, 2009

The Israel/Palestine Mission Network posts a film put together by those espousing radical Islamic views of Israel. UP-date

The Israel/Palestine Mission Network has posted a video on their site entitled “I Am Israel.” Ever hopeful, I thought it would perhaps have something good to say about Israel.

The person who placed the video there writes, “The following video entitled I Am Israel is a powerful and tragically beautiful presentation of the triumphs of Israel as it emerged to become a powerful Middle Eastern state in the modern world of today; an emergence of a people from the tragedy of World War II.”

It is not that at all. Instead the words which are vile were written by Hashem Said who is evidently very radical. He is a member of Hayaat which is supposedly a Washington University student organization for Palestinian human rights.

The video was put together by Jihane Al Quds. Whoever this person is they have a blog profile that lists only the title of their film, “
I Am Israel,” with the words to the film and a blog without postings entitled Tulkarem. He also has the You-Tube site that IPMN is linked to where he says he lives in the United States.

The words are bad by themselves but placed over the images of the film they are sheer propaganda.



The words, “I came to a land without a people for a people without a land. Those people who happened to be here, had no right to be here, and my people showed them they had to leave or die, razing 480 Palestinian villages to the ground, erasing their history,” leaves out so much while adding lies.

All of this is putting words into the mouths of those the radical Muslims hate. Words that they did not say. The Israelis did not show them that they had “to leave or die”-instead they fought for their own survival as many Arab nations attacked them.

The words, “carved in 1948 out of 78% of the land of Palestine, dispossessing its inhabitants and replacing them with Jews from Europe and other parts of the world,” are untrue.

As Mitchell G. Bard puts it in his book, Myths and Facts: A Guide To the Arab-Israeli Conflict:

“Nearly 80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the Jewish National Home, as defined by the League of Nations, was severed by the British in 1922 and allocated to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was barred. The UN partitioned the remaining 20 percent of Palestine into two states. With Jordan’s annexation the West Bank in 1950, Arabs controlled approximately 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate, while the Jewish State held a bare 17.5 percent (Gaza, occupied by Egypt, was the remainder.)”


Is it even necessary to refute such words as “I have the power to control American policy. My American Israel Public Affairs Committee can make or break any politician of its choosing, and as you see, they all compete to please me. All the forces of the world are powerless against me, including the UN as I have the American veto to block any condemnation of my war crimes. As Sharon so eloquently phrased it, We control America.”

That is a truly anti-Semitic statement suggesting that Israel controls the world.

And this, “I influence American mainstream media too, and you will always find the news tailored to my favor. I have invested millions of dollars into PR representation, and CNN, New York Times, and others have been doing an excellent job of promoting my propaganda. Look at other international news sources and you will see the difference,” should remind the reader of Henry Ford’s The International Jew, an anti-Semitic diatribe written in praise of Hitler's Germany.

The lies about the 1948 War fought by Israel against her Arab neighbors who attacked her, and the total disregard for Israel’s need to defend herself against those terrorist groups, Hamas and Hezbollah, who believe Israel has no right to exist, is captured in this film.

The fact that the Israel/Palestine Mission Network continues on unabated by the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. is damaging to the souls of this denomination. I believe we have lost our will and integrity. May God help us.

Up-date-

The person who made this video has visited my comment section. He has complained that I lied because I put up the IPMN introduction to his video.

He thought I was saying he wrote that introduction. Which was "The following video entitled I Am Israel is a powerful and tragically beautiful presentation of the triumphs of Israel as it emerged to become a powerful Middle Eastern state in the modern world of today; an emergence of a people from the tragedy of World War II. But it is also a powerful presentation of the tragedy of the Palestinian people on whose land powerful Israel now resides. It reminds us of the tragedy of two people, one living in Europe before the founding of Israel and the other in Palestine."

The maker of the video understands that he was saying nothing good about Israel. Was the IPMN trying to fool the public with that lead in that made even the video maker mad?!




70 comments:

Jim Jordan said...

The scary thing is that there are people in PCUSA who espouse this ignorant, garbage point of view. It has always been true that those who hate Israel are evil. Thus, evil people have influence in PCUSA. Again, the scary point.

Viola Larson said...

Yes, it is evil and it is scary-and it seems to grow. Thankfully it will all come to an end some day.

timeforthetruth said...

This is ugly ugly propaganda, produced in such a way as to create anger.

Thank you for vigilance on this issue.

Viola Larson said...

Yes its ugly and that twice. I think all I can keep doing is writing. I wish there was more.

Both you and Jim, although I know who you are need to sign your name and City, state.
Viola Larson,
Sacramento, Ca

Anonymous said...

You are such liar. You are the one who is making propaganda. I made that video and I've never wrote "This folloning video....."
Why would you write something I never said. You are the who made up that sentence and put it up there, and made it mine.
I wouldn't write such thing anyways. Writing something different than what the video has. That's a dumb stupid trick. And you did so that you show others that people who support Palestine are being propagandists.
I am sorry that you feel really bad about the video, but it's the overall history of israel. You can't deny the crimes israel had committed. You can't deny the fact that yes, the people who came to Palestine were Jews from all over the world,mostly from Europe. Where were these people before 1948? And call Norman G Finkelstein and Ilane Pappe, propagandists as well since they are writing books about your real history and they are exposing your own propanganda and lies.

You are just looking for stuff I never said. That's a prove that you want to show others that people who expose the truth about you, are simply propagandists. Just face the fact that most of all people in this world became aware of who israel is.
You are basically saying that all people who support Palestine and all the people, Jews, Arabs, Christians that went to protests to speak out against you, are all propagandists. And only you, that tiny piece of land "israel", and Zionists are the ones who are exposing the truth. BULL.
And, we are not hating israel. Yeah, we recognize it as state, sure, and we also state the massacres and war crimes it does. Why would that be considering as hating if a person is talking about justice?
Face it. The government of israel are vampires. They are hungry for blood. They love to kill. They killed more than 1000 in not even a month during the Gaza massacre and you are still talking.
The Israeli government is throwing young israelis that don't want to serve in the army in jail. The shministim. Don't ignore these things and stop hiding the real indentity of israel because it's not working anymore.

END THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION
FREE PALESTINE

-Jihane Al Quds

Anonymous said...

The King David Massacre
The Massacre at Baldat al-Shaikh
YEHIDA MASSACRE
KHISAS MASSACRE
QAZAZA MASSACRE
The Semiramis Hotel Massacre
The Massacre at Dair Yasin
NASER AL-DIN MASSACRE
THE TANTURA MASSACRE
BEIT DARAS MASSACRE
THE DAHMASH MOSQUE MASSACRE
DAWAYMA MASSACRE
HOULA MASSACRE
SHARAFAT MASSACRE
Salha Massacre
The Massacre at Qibya
KAFR QASEM MASSACRE
Khan Yunis Massacre
The Massacre in Gaza City
AL-SAMMOU' MASSACRE
Aitharoun Massacre
Kawnin Massacre
Hanin Massacre
Bint Jbeil Massacre
Abbasieh Massacre
Adloun Massacre
Saida Massacre
Fakhani Massacre
Beirut Massacre Sabra And Shatila Massacre
Jibsheet Massacre
Sohmor Massacre
Seer Al Garbiah
Maaraka Massacres
Zrariah Massacre
Homeen Al-Tahta Massacre
Jibaa Massacre
Yohmor Massacre
Tiri massacre
Al-Naher Al-Bared Massacre
Ain Al-Hillwee Massacre
OYON QARA MASSACRE
Siddiqine Massacre
AL-AQSA MOSQUE MASSACRE
THE IBRAHIMI MOSQUE MASSACRE
THE JABALIA MASSACRE
Aramta Massacre
ERETZ CHECKPOINT MASSACRE
Deir Al-Zahrani Massacre
Nabatiyeh (school bus) Massacre
Mnsuriah Massacre
The Sohmor Second Massacre
Nabatyaih Massacre
Qana Massacre
Trqumia Massacre
Janta Massacre
24 Of June 1999 Massacres
Western Bekaa villages Massacre

All of these massacres were done by israeli soldiers to protect the Palestinians. That the one with "leave or die"

-Jihane Al Quds

Anonymous said...

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/israeli-massacres.htm

These are all facts, massacres commited by israel. It's not propaganda. Well, call it whatever you want, but people know these are facts. Or you know what, change the word truth to propaganda, and vice versa in your language.

-Jihane Al Quds

John said...

+ Friends of Sabeel - North America offers "Reflection on the Sabeel Witness Trip, October 29 through November 6, 2009" by The Rev. Richard K. Toll, D.Min., D.D. Chairman, FOSNA. Excerpt: "The Sabeel witness visit this past month showed us new major expansion of settlements on the West Bank, more than I ever imagined since my most previous visit there in November 2008. Confiscations of land, destruction of villages, more by-pass roads and construction of the wall has shaken off the entire population of Palestinians. And the wall also separates Palestinians in one neighborhood from Palestinians nearby. The wall is so very ugly in the Bethlehem area especially and is used to choke off any hope for the thousands of Palestinians who live there. We observed families being evicted from their homes in the Sheik Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem, and the machinery of ethnic cleansing continues. Our trip was aptly entitled 'The Ongoing Nakba'. Evictions and land confiscation are visible everywhere and moving at a fast pace."

I am sure that those of you who are in total denial will continue to deny but others reading this comment may think about it.

love, john + www.abundancetrek.com + We are intimately, intricately and infinitely connected by a matrix of unconditional, unlimited and uniting love which is miraculous, mysterious and marvelous.

reformedpastor said...

Wow, Viola, you seemed to have turned over one ugly rock. First the usual meaningless invective, then a list of "massacres"--no dates, no details, no nothing. I don't have the time to check any of this list of random place names out, but I'd be willing to bet that most of them are "massacres" of armed Palestinians and terrorists.

But hey, if you've got Norman Finkelstein and Ilane Pappe on your side, who needs real information?

John: Do you really want to go hanging your case on the word of Sabeel, they of the supercessionist theology and anti-Semitic language?

David Fischler
Woodbridge, VA

Akiva Halevi said...

I can't believe how imbecilic you are. Those massacres are de facto. If you want more info on them, you can check wikipedia for more details.
And I, as a Jewish and against Zionism, enumerating massacres against the Palestinians, does not mean that the person is being Anti-Semitic. Jihan did not say anything against the Jews but Zionists. So don't twist what people say.
Other than that, I agree with the video because it speaks for the truth itself. Israel has massacred tons of Palestinians since it was created in 1948. Don't declare that as if it's untrue. It is true. What sort of mentality do you have by denying history?

Jewish and against Zionism

Love from Akiva

Viola Larson said...

Jihane, if that is your name, does that mean brother? Etc.

You misunderstood that the quote that began “This following video…” was put there by the Israel/Palestine Mission Network who posted the video on their site. And you have, by complaining just showed how dishonest they are being to those of us who are pro-Israel-so thank you although you did not intend to help me with my complaint.

Your video is not the true history of Israel. Yes there were atrocities on both sides. But you failed to list the atrocities committed by the Arabs.
And no Israel does not control the whole world or the the United States media.

To comment on my site you must put your full real name and city and town.

Viola Larson said...

Akiva Halevi,
I have several rules for commenting on my site. First no insults, second put your full real name, city and State or country.

Viola Larson said...

Wow, I see that both Jihane Al Quds and Akiva Halevi come from the same city and state. Amazing.

Viola Larson said...

For anyone reading this, the web site listed by Jihane Al Quds is not the Guardian but an individual's site. And the atrocities he lists can be found at a very vile web site. The IPMN in order to use something against Israel has dug into a hornet’s nest of radicalism.

Viola Larson
Sacramento, Ca

John said...

The video is challenging and in many ways unbalanced but then so is the dominant narrative about Israel here in the USA and somewhat too in Europe.

David, you dismissed the content of my comment by stating your beliefs about Sabeel. I really wish the cry of "Anti-Semitic" could be banned from our discussion. The Presbyterian and Lutheran (and others) support of the Palestinian cause is based on years of experience and the people who are advocating for the Palestinians in Christian circles are motivated by compassion and justice. Also, let's not forget that many Jews are opposed to the policies of Israel and the USA.

It is not hard to read between the lines of those who support Israel unconditionally. You want the Palestinians out of East Jerusalem and the West Bank. You want a Greater Israel based on the biblical boundaries. You are willing to look the other way as Israel commits one violent act after another to achieve those illegal and immoral goals.

You believe the fantasy that the Camp David meeting of 2000 actually offered the Palestinians a viable state when all reasonable people on the planet could see that Israel was offering nothing but bandustans as South Africa once did.

You dismiss one eye witness report after another by simply crying "Anti-Semitic" or some other label which allows you to dismiss the truth.

love, john + www.abundancetrek.com + "Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice." -- Martin Luther King, Jr. (the speech containing this famous quote is found at http://www.indiana.edu/~ivieweb/mlkwhere.html)

John said...

Sorry Viola. I missed your policy until now. I live in Whitesboro NY where we had a heavy frost this morning but now the sun is shining and I can get out and rake some leaves.

love, john + Abundancetrek.com + "The quest for a story is the quest for a life.” — Jill Johnston quoted in The Vein of Gold by Julia Cameron

Viola Larson said...

John,
The whole focus of this posting and a great deal of my other postings on those organizations within the PCUSA who are supposedly ministering to the Middle East has been about their one sided views. And, yes, in many cases their anti-Semitism. The video “I Am Israel” is anti-Semitic not just unbalanced. If you go on the blog site of the person who did the video you will find the Star of David with a swastika within it. If you are reading all the comments you will see that the maker of the video was enraged that anyone should think he said anything good about Israel.

It is time in this denomination for all of us-not just a few-to say you can’t keep doing this in our name. If you want to be anti-Semitic take the name of our Church out of your title.

Viola Larson
Sacramento, Ca

Viola Larson said...

John,
I think it is important for someone to explain why resorting to Sebeel as some do is not helpful for those who care about both Israel and the Palestinians.

First off, leadership at Sebeel theologically adheres to liberation theology which as it slowly slides away from orthodoxy becomes very bad theology. The special relationship that Jesus Christ has with his Church is replaced by the supposed special relationship God has with the poor and oppressed.

The problem is that the Church is connected to the Scriptures, both Old and New, by her relationship with Christ. As she ministers to those in need, (and she must do that) she is under the authority of the Lord of Scripture. In that context some of the oppressed are not left out. The children of Israel as they face the bombardment of rockets from Hamas militants are also part of the oppressed. And those who admit to the Lordship of Christ know that.
They also realize that the Jewish people need a place of safety as much as the Palestinians need a homeland. All of the oppressed are to be ministered to.

Secondly here are some quotes taken from “A Palestinian Christian Cry for Reconciliation” by the founder of Sebeel, Naim Ateek,
"Silence about the immoral core of Israeli statehood makes us all complicit in breeding the terrorism that threatens a catastrophe which would tear the world apart.”
And,
"Read in the light of the suicide bombers of this century, the story [of Samson in the Bible] poses a barrage of question. Was Samson a suicide bomber? Was he acting on behalf of the God of justice who wills the liberation of the oppressed? Was God pleased with the deaths of thousands of men and women of the Philistines? Are we confronted with similar stories today in the experience of suicide bombers? Is it legitimate to tell the story of Samson by substituting Ahmad for his name? Can it be said that the God of justice is active in working out the liberation of the oppressed Palestinians through the likes of Ahmad?" (p. 123) (I should write I am taking these quotes from an article at, http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2009/05/from-fair-witness-review-of-naim-ateeks.html)

Also in the introduction to his book, which is on the web as a pdf file, Ateek implies that both Hamas and Hezbollah are the creations of Israel. (I have by the way ordered his book)
Thirdly Naim Ateek has used language that is the old slur of deicide against the Jews, when in reality it was Jews, Romans and all of us. And in fact Jesus said that he laid down his life. He did it for us, the Jew first and then the Gentile.

Toby Brown said...

Viola,

Thanks for posting this! The continuance of the same rhetoric that created the Holocaust is now being espoused all over the Muslim world, as we know. And to add to this the tone of the UN and Europe against Israel is just icing on an ugly cake.

The mainlines are dangerously close to abandoning the Jewish people and repeating the horrible mistakes of the past.

Melitto of Sardis would be proud of this "mission network".

Anonymous said...

I viewed the video titled, “I am Israel”. I know enough about history to tell you this is something I would expect from some white supremacy group that hates Jews and Blacks. Who attacked who in the 1948 War? I have seen this before!!! “Jews control the world!!!!” I read this garbage before, it came out of Hitler’s propaganda machine in world war 2. This is what was fed to the German people in the 1930’s before Germany went into full swing in the 1940’s with the final solution. What is amazing to me is that this and other videos can be seen from a Christian Organization. We have the President of Iran saying the Holocaust never happened and wants the State of Israel destroyed and most likely all Jews. Oh, but the Jews are the problem! What a disgrace! I am so glad I am not a member in the PCUSA anymore.
John from Yorktown Hgts N.Y

John said...

Dear Viola,

My problem with your latest comment addressed to me (and I do appreciate that immensely) is that you did not deal with the issues raised by me or by Sabeel. Isn't it possible to disagree with some or even most of Sabeel's statements and policies and yet still see that there is much (or at least some)truth in the information they share with us? I sure think so.

I can appreciate that you and others feel like the PC(USA) takes a stand which is unbalanced. Perhaps this is in part simply to counteract the lack of balance in most reporting on Israel/Palestine by the media of the USA.

You and others who support Israel unconditionally deal with a hundred other issues rather than the complete illegality and immorality of the colonies in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. You need to come out strongly in favor of the long standing policy of the US government which is to oppose those illegal and immoral colonies.

We need our government to adhere to this policy and we need to advocate for this with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind. People who support Israel can and should do this. All of the other issues pale in comparison to this one. Israel must leave its illegal colonies ASAP. I wait in hope for the announcement of the Israeli government that this will be done and the announcement of the US government that we insist on Israeli departure from its illegal and immoral colonies in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That's THE issue, not Sabeel or who made the video or any other issues you bring up to sidetrack the debate.

love, john + www.abundancetrek.com + And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? -- Micah 6:8

Dexter Van Zile said...

Viola:

Good job drawing attention to this video and the IPMN's decision to post it.

This is not peacemaking. This is anti-Israel propagandizing.

The IPMN and its supporters and defenders in the bureacracy of the PC(USA) (who falsely deny any responsibility for the IPMN's actions) have a lot to answer for.

This is Jew-baiting. That's what the IPMN is doing. It is seeking to draw attention to itself by posting this one-sided view of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

The goal is to provoke an angry response from the Jewish community in the U.S. and then portray themselves as victims in the face of Jewish criticism.

The question at this point is when the membership of the PC(USA), the laity are going to accept responsibility for the ugly calumnies issued in their name.

Sincerely,

Dexter Van Zile
Christian Media Analyst
CAMERA

Pastor Bob said...

John

I suspect that you will not find anyone who has written in support of Israel here would support the political goals of Israel in creating and maintaining settlements. If I am wrong folks, speak up.

I think you will find a real frustration in Israel that withdrawing from Gaza did not produce any positive results for Israel. Having said that I would also respond that the military blockade of Gaza by Israel certainly didn't help the situation either.

In other words I see Viola pointing out the lack of balance in the PCUSA. Now some secular media take the Palestinian side too, the New York Times for example.

What I want, and I am sure Viola wants is for the PCUSA reporting the views of both sides and the facts on the ground from both sides. We don't see that and instead see some networks supported by the GA offices speaking from one side and using words, phrases and references that ARE antisemitic.

I don't expect the secular media to be balanced, or even truthful for that matter. I do expect the PCUSA and groups supported by the PCUSA to be balanced. Unfortunately while I see balance some places in the PCUSA the video to which Viola linked is certainly not an example of balance and uses antisemitic materials.

My Jewish friends, who certainly don't support all the actions for the Israeli government hear certain code words and immediately react because those words have meant "Jews are going to die" for centuries. And too often it has been the voice of the Church that has said those words. So they are more than a bit sensitive when Christians groups use those words.


Bob Campbell
Sharon Hill, PA

Anonymous said...

I posted the following comment on IPMN:

"A truly evil lie; from beginning to end."

It is awaiting moderation - I wonder if it will be moderated out or in.

youcancallmemeyer

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Given Jihane Al Quds' limited grasp of English grammar and structure, evidenced in his posts, I have no doubt that he had nothing to do with the PR style copy in the video.

The video is nothing more than edited video footage with matched poisoned text.

It's interesting that Pastor Bob thinks:

"Now some secular media take the Palestinian side too, the New York Times for example."

I can't stomach watching the video again; but didn't it cite CNN and the New York Times as being a pusher of the Israeli' narrative?

youcancallmemeyer

Sydney, NSW, Australia (lapsed nominal Presbyterian)

Viola Larson said...

I am sorry Anonymous I don't allow comments like that on my blog.

Also 'youcancallmemeyer' I need your full name and city plus stte or country if you are else where than US Thanks.

Dexter Van Zile said...

Israel has been attacked from nearly every bit of territory from which it has withdrawn since signing the Declaration of Principles in 1993, the document which designated the Palestinian Authority as the representative of the Palestinian people.

It withdrew from cities and towns in the West Bank in the late 1990s to see these municipalities used as recruiting grounds for suicide bombers during the Second Intifada.

It withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005 only to see the rocket attacks increase and to witness the attack in 2006. Israel has been subject to rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip since 2001, by the way.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 to be attacked by Hezbollah from Lebanon six years later.

It should also be noted that the deaths of Israeli civilians increased after Israel signed the Declaration of Principles in '93. The whole point of the DOP was to bring an end to terrorism, and it increased, thanks to Hamas.

The Israelis remain committed to a peace settlement, but Yossi Klein Halevi has reported that this support is pretty abstract after what happened in the Gaza Strip.

If you think that Northern Ireland serves as a useful model for peacemaking in this conflict, you should consider these events as a catastrophe. The whole point of the withdrawals was to build confidence and give the Israelis reason to think future sacrifices would lead to at least a reduction in attacks. And repeatedly, they have not.

The fact is, Israel has every reason to think more withdrawals will lead to increased violence.

As far as the "blockade" of the Gaza Strip, again, Israel has been subjected to rocket attacks from this territory since 2001. Yes, the Gazans are suffering, but at what point are people going to acknowledge the role Hamas played in creating this suffering?

The IPMN is posting an old bit of propaganda from a harsh anti-Israel extremist, and is trying to pass it off as "peacemaking." I have transcribed the text of the video and as you know, it is ugly and distorted. It is marred by numerous ommissions that clearly serve to demonize Israel.

Debbie said...

John, please stop saying that Viola supports Israel "unconditionally." Read all her writings and you will find that that is not true. What she is against is hatred of the Jewish people, which often shows up as unrelenting criticism (and absolutely no support) of Israel combined with unconditional support of Palestinians. Please moderate your language on this.

Debbie Berkley
Bellevue, WA

Dexter Van Zile said...

For those who have seen the video, it reports that Ariel Sharon said "we control america."

It's a bogus quote. It's a fabrication.

See here:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=6&x_article=34

Meryl Yourish said...

John, your pretense at being civil and evenhanded dies every time you accuse your debate opponents here of supporting Israel unconditionally. That is a slam that discounts all evidence presented by them (or, say, me).

To say nothing of your refusal to recognize the vile anti-Semitism of Sabeel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naim_Ateek#Controversial_views

But sure, go ahead and slam everyone who disagrees with you as an unconditional supporter of Israel. That's totally the way to get your points across.

John said...

It is amazing to me how I can raise over and over again the basic issue of Israel's illegal and immoral colonies and nobody deals directly with that issue.

I have trouble seeing how Viola and those who side with her are not basically in favor of a Greater Israel based on the map of 2500 years ago. This is certainly the policy I see being implemented by the Israeli government with the support of my government, the government of the USA, even though our official policy backs two states (I think).

I will try to refrain from saying that "your side" supports Israel unconditionally. I hope "your side" will refrain from crying "Anti-Semitic" when people are highly critical of Israel. I am critical of the Israeli government but not of Jews. I affirm Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and many more wisdom traditions. We live in wonderful times when people can mix it up as so many of us do here in the USA and increasingly in other parts of the world.

Moslems, Jews and Christians need to work at reconciliation and mutual affirmation. It is long overdue.

Please affirm here that the West Bank and East Jerusalem do not belong to Israel. Please support the evacuation of Israelis from the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

I have trouble seeing how any reasonable person can not see that the Nakba is indeed continuing on a daily basis throughout The West Bank and East Jerusalem. Go there and see what's happening.

That is why so many of us feel so strongly that Israel needs to stop what it is doing and accept the boundaries of 1948. Arabs are giving all kinds of indications that they are now willing to accept those boundaries even though the 1947 UN resolution gave a lot more territory to the Palestinians than the 1948 cease-fire did.

By the way, "your side" often uses offensive words to describe "my side." Just read the posts and the comments from as objective an unbiased viewpoint as you can muster. For example, Jim Jordan asserted that "my side" espouses an "ignorant, garbage point of view." Viola readily agreed. How sad.

It is at least understandable that the Palestinian natives might feel just a little angry at what has happened to their lives, land and resources for the past 92 years. Try to walk a mile in their moccasins.

love, john + www.abundancetrek.com + "The day will come when, after harnessing space, the winds, the tides and gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, humankind will have discovered fire." -- Teilhard de Chardin

Viola Larson said...

John,
When I agreed with Jim it was over the video which is garbage and ignorant. If you also agree with the video then we are certainly at odds with each other. And as long as there is an IPMN espousing such garbage and not backing away from it I will be writing posts about them and their anti-Semitism.

I can imagine in another time and place dialoguing about East Jerusalem and the West Bank but not under the framework of the anti-Semitism of such Presbyterian organizations as IPMN. If you are interested I have been writing on Anti-Semitism for a very long time. (Before I became a Presbyterian-I know anti-Semitism when I see it.) You can see one published article here: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0002b.html, and another here: http://www.naminggrace.org/id59.htm

I am praying for the day when the PCUSA will be free of its anti-Semitism as well as its other heretical problems.

Viola Larson
Sacramento, Ca

Viola Larson said...

Dexter thanks for the information it is very helpful.

Toby, Debbie and Bob thank you we are all fairly much in agreement.

John without a last name, thanks for commenting but please leave your whole name next time. And yes, I know who you are and hope all is well.

Meryl Yourish, thanks so much for commenting and I know it sounds stupid to say leave your city and country, but please do so.

Viola Larson,
Sacramento, Ca

Debbie said...

John, when did you last hear of a suicide bombing by a Palestinian in Israel? There used to be a lot of them, and then Israel put up the defensive wall. Now they've stopped. I agree, the wall is a terrible thing to have to live behind, it makes life very hard for the Palestinians, and it's an awful thing for Israel to have to resort to, but the Palestinians shouldn't blame Israel for it, they should blame those of their own people who insisted on continuing to detonate suicide bombs to kill Jewish people in Israel, doing things such as hiding in ambulances in order to get their bombs through checkpoints, etc. That kind of thing is the real cause of the wall. That's why I can't urge Israel to take it down.

Debbie Berkley
Bellevue, WA

Meryl Yourish said...

Sorry, Viola, forgot. Richmond, Virginia.

John, funny, I never said "your side" or "my side". I said "debate opponents." You really are into personalizing this no matter what, aren't you?

Please affirm here that the West Bank and East Jerusalem do not belong to Israel. Please support the evacuation of Israelis from the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Nope. You mean Hebron, the city that in 1929 had a substantial Jewish population, but that was forced out by the British after the Arabs massacred dozens and threatened the rest?

East Jerusalem? You mean the site of the centuries-old Jewish Quarter, which had an unbroken history of Jewish population until 1948, when Jordan killed or evicted all the Jews from that part of Jerusalem, and then proceeded to destroy all Jewish holy sites?

No, no, and no. I will not affirm your history, which seems completely blind to actual history that included---I know this is a tough concept---Jews in areas where the Palestinians like to pretend there were none.

I think you need to brush up on your history.

Toby Brown said...

Meryl,

You should come around here more often!

:)

John said...

Dear Meryl,

I remain amazed that people can deny the obvious.

I never asked you to affirm any particular history. Once again, you avoid the basic issue of the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem by attempting to sidetrack us to other issues.

It seems to me that you want a Greater Israel as many Zionists do.

I use the term "my side" and "your side" as a convenience for distinguishing between the sides in this debate. I love the people on both sides.

If you do want to get into history, perhaps you can accept that the overwhelming majority of residents of the West Bank were Arab Palestinians in the early 1920s when the British conducted a census: 600,000 Arab Palestinians & 50,000 Jews. By 1947, estimates were that there were 1.2 million Arab Palestinians and 600,000 Jews. And yet, the territory remaining in the hands of the Arab Palestinians after the 1949 ceasefire was 22 per cent of Palestine. This has shrunk considerably since 1967. The Arab Palestinians are left with perhaps ten per cent of the land even though the Arab Palestinian population is now roughly half of all the people of Israel/Palestine.

Oh, I know. There are plenty of places where these people can go. How would you like to be told you must leave your homeland?

Yes, Jews should have access to sacred places in Jerusalem and elsewhere. This can be worked out.

Make Jerusalem an international city as the UN proposed in 1947. It is a sacred city for all 3 Abrahamic religions and we all need access to our sacred sites. Internationalizing Jerusalem would be in the best interest of all of us.

love, john + www.abundancetrek.com + "Progress is not measured by how much we add to the abundance of those who already have a great deal, but rather by how much we do for those who have too little." -- Franklin D Roosevelt quoted by William Sloane Coffin in Credo

John said...

Dear Debbie,

I believe you have also attempted to sidetrack the debate by bringing up the Wall.

I don't support the violence on either side. Israeli violence is huge and goes on day after day after day. Many more Arabs have lost life, livelihood, land and resources in the past 92 years than Jews and that's an undisputed fact. It is ethnic cleansing and it must stop and our government must stop looking the other way as Israel continues to destroy lives, livelihoods, land and resources.

There is simply no justification for the illegal and immoral colonies which have been built in the West Bamk since 1967 and that's what I want you to acknowledge and join me in urging our government to insist that Israel orders the colonists back to Israel immediately.

By the way, much of the wall is illegal since it was built within the West Bank and East Jerusalem and not on the 1949 ceasefire line.
Israel can certainly build a wall on that border just as we are doing on the US-Mexican border (sadly).

love, john (Whitesboro NY) + www.abundancetrek.com + “To be nobody-but-yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting” – E. E. Cummings

John said...

Dear Viola,

Oops, I missed the requirement of a lst name. I am John Wilde, Whitesboro NY.

Viola Larson said...

John and all,
There is an extremely well done page with maps and statistics on Israel at http://www.factsofisrael.com/en/history.shtml

I recommend it.

Viola Larson
Sacramento, Ca

Pastor Bob said...

John

I said:

"I suspect that you will not find anyone who has written in support of Israel here would support the political goals of Israel in creating and maintaining settlements. If I am wrong folks, speak up."

Then you said:

"It is amazing to me how I can raise over and over again the basic issue of Israel's illegal and immoral colonies and nobody deals directly with that issue."

Did I miss something or does my statement no directly refute yours?

Bob Campbell
Sharon Hill, PA

Kattie W. Coon said...

Bob,

"Did I miss something or does my statement no directly refute yours?"

No, it does not. You asked them to vote by remaining silent.

Kattie
Huntsville, Al

reformedpastor said...

OK, fine. I've said several times on Viola's blog, and repeatedly on mine, as I've said for thirty years, that Israel's settlement policy is wrong, stupid, and ultimately more of a danger to Israel than a help. Israel should dismantle the settlements, not because it will further the peace process (I doubt seriously that it would), but because it would be the right thing to do as well as making the country more defensible.

Satisfied?

(By the way, I recently said something like this in response to John. His continuing characterization of the commentators here as being "unconditionally" supportive of anything Israel does is simply willful ignorance, if not plain dishonest.)

David Fischler
Woodbridge, VA

Kattie W. Coon said...

Is that all David? A settlement policy?!

Kattie
Huntsville, Al

reformedpastor said...

No, of course not, Katie. Israel was wrong to fight back in 1948, when it could have solved the entire problem by disappearing. Ditto 1956, 1967, and 1973. It had no business withdrawing its settlements from Gaza in 2005, because it did so without the explicit permission of Hamas, Israel has no business killing any Palestinian, no matter how well armed or how many Jews he or she has killed, because to do so denies them their rights. Actually, Israel has no right to defend itself at all. It has no right to any of the land within its so-called borders, all of which was stolen from Arabs whose ancestors had lived there from pre-historic times. In fact, the world as well as the Palestinians would be far better off if the Israel didn't exist. Then everyone could just go about his business, and all would be sweetness and light. There would be no more Islamic terrorism, no more conflict between Christians and Muslims (or between Muslims and Hindus, or Muslims and Buddhists, or Muslims and Communists, the conflicts between which are all the fault of Israel, just as Israel has been at fault for everything that has gone wrong in the Middle East since it invaded five Arab nations in 1948, bent on a war of conquest that would result in Jews taking over the world), no more disease or poverty or war. It would be just as John Lennon wanted.

Is that enough for you?

/sarc

David Fischler
Woodbridge, VA

Kattie W. Coon said...

David,

I think you made your point of view abundantly clear for all to see. The sarcasm speaks volumes. How sad. I hoped you would take the question more seriously.

In what way is your response better than the video hyperbole Viola's post is about? Do you think your response is a proper Christian response?

Kattie
Huntsville, Al

Viola Larson said...

David thank you for your anger. Sometimes anger is appropriate and in this case it is.

Toby Brown said...

I guess the facts are no longer "Christian".

LOL.

Kattie W. Coon said...

Which "facts" are you referring to Toby?

Kattie
Huntsville, Al

reformedpastor said...

Viola: I appreciate your affirmation.

Kattie: Take what question seriously? "Is that all?" What do you want, a formal confession to every charge ever made against Israel? Is that the only way you and John will take seriously what Bob contended and I attempted to provide proof for, namely, that the supporters of Israel among Viola's readers don't support it "unconditionally?"

David Fischler
Woodbridge, VA

Kattie W. Coon said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
John said...

Dear Friends,

I think labels get in the way of helpful dialogue. I have stated that the video is indeed unbalanced but I think the label of "anti-Semitic" (or "garbage" or "ignorant" or "evil" or "dishonest") gets in the way of helpful dialogue because it becomes a convenient way to dismiss the legitimacy of Palestinian anger and frustration toward Israel. The video presents a lot of information which is accurate. Some statements reveal a lot of anger and even hatred which should indeed be criticized.

But I think it is important to understand and appreciate the depth of Palestinian despair. Their homeland has been overwhelmingly devastated by the events of the past 92 years since Britain and then Israel dominated their part of the world. The Palestinians have lost far too many lives, livelihoods, resources, trees, gardens and fields during the years of the ongoing Nakba.

I am looking for as much appreciation of Palestinians as I see of Jews and I simply don't see it in the positions taken by Viola and others here.

John Wilde
Whitesboro NY

Kattie W. Coon said...

Viola,

You've deleted comments of mine in the past sometimes for what I could only consider misinterpretation on your part, other times they have been deleted for possibly just reasons, but this time I'm having a hard time trying to figure out exactly what I actually wrote that could have been offensive.

What images did my words conjure up in your mind? Remember that those images belong to you, not me.

I insulted no one, but referred to your "Consistory" cohort, as short hand for the three of you who were commenting on this thread. I did that because I didn't want Pastor Bob (not a member of the "Consistory") to come in and write the words for you, as I suspect he might (sorry Bob, please know that I have a lot of respect for you).

Now, David seemed to assert that I would not be satisfied unless he answered every charge ever made against Israel. I calmly pointed out to him that to do so would be unnecessary and a waste of time, and that I would be satisfied with much less than that, but more than what has thus far been presented. His assertion was simply an insulting exaggeration of the truth. My response to him was neither sarcastic nor hyperbolic, nor insulting, like his were to me.

Please explain your action here.

Kattie
Huntsville, Al

Kattie W. Coon said...

John,

Amen to that Brother.

Kattie
Huntsville,Al

Pastor Bob said...

I realize that this is probably a hopeless attempt but I suspect everyone here is willing to admit there is sin on both sides. I think we all might agree that the best place for a division between Israel and Palestine is along the blue line or a mutually agreed upon exchange of land. Water rights and Jerusalem I think are the real sticking points.

BUT

Claiming as the video did that all the Jews came from Europe is simply false. There has been a Jewish community in the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan for thousands of years. They were a minority to be sure but they were there. They were chased out of Hebron and attacked in the old Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem.

More came later from Europe and I don't think anyone here will complain about their wanting to get out of Europe. The fact is that no nation wanted Jews from Europe in the 1930's including the USA. Where were they supposed to go? The only place they were accepted was Palestine. Well, they were accepted by the British for a while and rejected by some Palestinians who rioted and killed some of them. But what were they supposed to do, stay in Europe and die?

And sure Jews came to Israel from other countries in the Middle East and North Africa. They were kicked out and their possessions were kept by their neighbors or governments. Where were they supposed to go? The only country that accepted them was Israel. Curiously there would have been less Jews in Israel in 1955 if the governments in North Africa and the Middle East had simply continued to accept the Jews in their midst. But those Jews had to be persecuted because of the existence of Israel.

The video fails to mention these facts. And as it talks about chasing people into the sea it fails to mention that in 1967 Egypt said it was going to do so. I was alive then and I remember. Should the Israelis have ignored these threats?

So I want two countries with safe and secure borders in Israel/Palestine. Of course no one over there is listening to me. And to be fair I don't have to live there.

But propaganda from either side doesn't help the situation. And this video is propaganda. Some of the things it says are clearly antisemitic.

But there are parts of the video that are accurate. Begin was involved in a massacre. If he was Palestinian we would call him a terrorist.

I've also have seen the propaganda from the settlers and talked with some American Zionists who do indeed want to chase all the Palestinians out of "Greater Israel."

Nobody's hands are clean. If there were rational people who were trusted they could probably come to a just settlement. But the non rational people on both sides would then kill them. Look what happened to Rabin and Sadat! Too many people on both sides don't want a just settlement.

But when a group of Presbyterians who call themselves the Israel/Palestine Mission Network that should call itself the Palestinian support network links to this garbage I get angry. I want my denomination to support a just solution for both sides. The IPMN supports one side. And that is wrong.

Kattie W. Coon said...

Bob,

I appreciate what you're conveying, and agree with you. I just wish Viola would be as fair minded as you are. Her particular criticism of the IPMN appears to me to be nothing more than hypocrisy, whereas yours does not.

I'm reminded of something Viola wrote on this blog back on August 27th:

"What a sorry half story, and because of that a false story. Truly what sinners we all are."

I assume she can do better (likewise the IPMN). She just hasn't up to this point.

Kattie
Huntsville, Al

Dexter Van Zile said...

“I think labels get in the way of helpful dialogue.”

I find this passage kind of ironic given that it comes from someone who has accused people who disagree with him as being in “total denial” and accused people who thought Camp David was a legitimate offer as buying into a “fantasy” and has accused Israel of pursuing illegal and immoral goals. And then he accused Israel of offering Palestinians “Bantustans.”

Regardless of what you think about the Israeli offer at Camp David, there’s one fact that Israelis need to contend with: Arafat did not make a counter offer.

Moreover, Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia told Arafat that it would be “a crime” if he did not accept the Clinton Parameters (which Israel accepted) offered a few months after Camp David. Arafat still said no.

John’s insistence that everyone declare that Israeli settlements in the West Bank as illegal and immoral is an attempt to pre-determine the outcome of negotiations of a final settlement that can only be made between Israelis and Palestinians. Notions of morality and legality are easy to fling about thousands of miles from the conflict, but the Israelis contend with strategic concerns as well as moral issues.

What happens if Israel does the right thing in John’s book withdraws from the West Bank and the violence does not cease? Or worse, what happens if it increases, as it has in the past. (See my post above.)

In January 2006, then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that Israel has a moral and legal right to Judea and Samaria, but that in order to maintain the goal of a Jewish state, it is necessary to cede most of this territory to the Palestinians.

During the Oslo Accords, the Israelis had hoped that yielding territory would lead to peace. They turned a blind eye to Arafat’s support for terrorism in the 1990s, and called anyone who tried to draw attention to his support for violence against Israel even as he negotiated as an enemy of peace. This came to an end with the Second Intifada. The Israeli peace movement lost a lot of credibility in Israel because of the violence.

Here’s what I wrote in a previous article

“After the collapse of the Camp David Process, peace-loving Israelis were devastated and many of them laid the blame squarely on the Arab inability to accept Israel’s right to exist. Hirsh Goodman had this to say at the height of the Second Intifada in 2002: “I supported Oslo. I supported talking with Arafat. The greatest disappointment was to discover that despite everything I've believed, everything I've promulgated, that [expletive] never gave up terror.” (We never saw that quote in any background documents prepared by the activists and church staffers now did we?)

“Goodman was not the only peace activist to take a different attitude after the Second Intifada. This is how a liberal pro-peace Israeli Jew (who will be left nameless) responded to the “Tear Down the Wall” resolution passed by the United Church of Christ in 2005: “When I hear churches in the U.S. tell us to tear down the wall, it makes me want to build another one right behind it.”

John wants us to understand and acknowledge the despair faced by the Palestinians. This is entirely legitimate.

Mainliners, however, have to understand what happened to the Israeli peace movement and the despair Israelis feel.

John writes in a pretty dismissive and contemptible tone toward Israelis. Sitting thousands of miles from the conflict and in the relative safety of the U.S., he sits in judgment on people who are at their wits end as to how to bring an end to the conflict. They’ve tried unilateral withdrawal and it brought more violence.

Take a look at Israeli history over the past few years, and then take a look at John’s moralizing and ask how you would respond to what he’s written if you were an Israeli. Take a look at the resolutions passed by mainline churches in the aftermath of the Second Intifada. Then ask yourself how you would respond.

John said...

Dear Dexter,

Thanks for your response. It is good to share. I don't appreciate your judgments however. God is my Judge and not you.

If I have erred on the side of over-appreciating the Palestinian despair and under-appreciating the Israeli despair, then maybe I can change but nothing you said has led me to that conclusion. I simply see what's happening and what has happened in a very different way than you do.

We all find quotes and facts to back our positions. What I am hoping for is that we somehow get beyond the competing narratives and get to the real truth and then to the miracle and wonder of true reconciliation and justice and peace.

As for the video, most if not all the facts are real and I think the anger is justified but I am listening to you because I also know that Jews have a lot of good reasons to be concerned. I hope you can see that I am making a sincere effort to separate the policies of Israel and the USA (very immoral in my opinion) from the Jewish ethnic group and community of faith which is wonderful.

love,
John A Wilde
Whitesboro NY

Viola Larson said...

John,

Excuse me but saying this, "As for the video, most if not all the facts are real and I think the anger is justified but I am listening to you because I also know that Jews have a lot of good reasons to be concerned. I hope you can see that I am making a sincere effort to separate the policies of Israel and the USA (very immoral in my opinion) from the Jewish ethnic group and community of faith which is wonderful," is just off the wall.

Not even most of the video screed is true. That has already been demostrated both by some things in my posting and by a posting done by Dexter on his web site, plus what he has stated here.

Saying that the video is mostly true is not dialogue it is agreement with all of those who are spouting anti-Semitism.
Viola Larson
Sacramento, Ca

Debbie said...

John, you said that everyone here was focused on defending Jewish people without talking enough about Palestinian people. Right, focusing on defense of Jewish people is the point of this blog posting. It's to point out anti-Jewish sentiments that are dangerously cropping up in the PCUSA. If anti-Palestinian sentiments were dangerously cropping up instead, we would be pointing them out, but they are not, so we don't need to worry about that at this point. We can defend the Palestinians in a different forum if need be. But defending them here is taking away from the point of this blog posting, which is to point out anti-Jewish sentiments that are dangerously and subtly making their way into the PCUSA.

Now, about me, you said that you believe that I "also attempted to sidetrack the debate by bringing up the Wall." No, I didn't. I had not the least thought of sidetracking the debate. I thought I was merely responding to things you had said, such as "that the Palestinian natives might feel just a little angry at what has happened to their lives". You are the one who has injected malicious motives into what I said. When you do things like that, or like saying that we are all "unconditional" supporters of Israel, you inject rancor into this debate that did not previously exist. Do not demonize your debate opponents. Just because we have different opinions from you, this does not mean that we are mean-spirited people.

Debbie Berkley
Bellevue, WA

Dexter Van Zile said...

Viola is correct. The video (which apparently, has been taken down) is filled with misinformation.

The Sharon quote is, as others have said, is a fabrication, taken, if I recall correctly, from a Hamas press release.

The accusation of Israel swallowing up the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is also unfair and dishonest. Israel tried to negotiate a land for peace deal after the Six Day War only to be met with the Three Nos of Khartoum in which the Arab League said no negotiations, no recognition, no peace with Israel.

If you look at the attack on the ADL on the IPMN's site, you can see what the site is about. Antagonizing the Jewish community in the U.S.

They took down the video and then put up an attack on the ADL.

Three things are becoming increasingly obvious.

1. The relentless anti-Israelism of the so-called peace activists in mainline churches is not conducive to peace.

2. The relentless anti-Israelism of these activists is poisoning the interfaith relationships these churches say they want to have with the Jewish community.

3. (And this is a biggie.) The relentless and vehement anti-Israelism of the so-called peace activists is having a poisonous effect on the religious life of the churches they are trying to influence. This is the point Viola has made in another post. Even those who are legitimately sympathetic to the Palestinian cause have reason to wonder why IPMN would post the (mis)information it has displayed on its site.

This is an organization charged with educating the PC(USA) about the conflict and its posting links to Al Manar and to video like "I am Israel."

Who do they think they are kidding.

The debate is finally getting to the point where people like Viola are starting to ask what type of church they want to have.

That's been the ultimate issue all along.

Amen and Amen.

Viola Larson said...

Dexter the ADL piece was there before they took the video down. I still want to thank whoever helped get them to take it down. And I want to thank you and everyone else who stood up for truth.

John said...

Dear Debbie,

I'm sorry that I have come across to you in such a way as you describe. It is not at all my intention to suggest that you or Viola or David or others are mean-spirited.

I simply feel very strongly that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is horribly wrong and I feel a need to advocate for them frequently and oppose the policy of the Israeli government and the US government.

I wonder if you can make a huge distinction between the government of Israel and the Jewish people. The Israeli government is causing enormous pain with the enormous support of the US government.

I have nothing but admiration for the Jewish people both as an ethnic group and as the people of one of the world's great wisdom traditions.

Again, I feel the need to say what I said yesterday and will say as often as necessary: I believe the strong Presbyterian support of the Palestinian cause is motivated totally by empathy and compassion and real facts on the ground and not hatred toward Jews.

love,
John A Wilde
Whitesboro NY

Debbie said...

Of course I can distinguish between the Jewish people and the Israeli government. My husband has occasionally worked with people from the Jewish Defense League and other such groups, and even they have said to him that Israel (the country) has done things wrong, and I agree.

But what looks dangerous to Viola and others is when groups like the IPMN start saying things like "Jews control the US media". That is not anti-Israel, that is anti-Jew. This is the distinction that is troubling. This is what must be guarded against. Those who advocate for Palestinians must be careful not to extend their support for them and dislike for the country Israel to an attitude of persecution against Jews, which is showing up more and more in the U.S.A., including things like using this video deceptively as the IPMN did (shown by the video maker's comments, which contradicted what they said about it.) And the PCUSA must also be more balanced in its attitude towards the controversy. This was even something passed at the last GA, that the PCUSA would be more balanced, and yet it continues over and over to advocate solely for the Palestinians and against Israel. That is the other concern. I am not advocating dropping concern for the Palestinians and advocating solely for Israel. I am advocating fairness and balance, and reporting facts correctly.

Debbie Berkley
Bellevue, WA

Colin Christian said...

Hi,
I think as Christians, we need to uphold Christian virtues. It seems to me that taking in refugees fleeing for their lives is a Christian act. That is, Palestinians who started the 36 Revolt to stop Jews fleeing Hitler were acting in a fundamentally immoral way. Likewise, in 45-8, they could have seen the results of their earlier policy, repented, and offered a home to the survivors still fleeing Europe. They didnt. They could even have accepted any one of the peace plans offered as an alternative to war - the Peel commission, Anglo American, UN, Red Cross etc. Each were accepted by Israel, rejected by the Palestinian leadership up to and including Olmerts offer. Why do western churches support Palestinian christians who place their ethnicity above their faith?Palestinian Christians deliberately chose to side with their moslem fellow Arabs against showing a Christ like attitude to their Jewish neighours. One could say that their suffering as a result is suffering for their apostacy. Palestinian suffering is not proof of Palestinian innocence - equally, when churches call "tear down this wall", they place Palestinian inconvinience as a higher priority than Israeli lives - hardly a moral position. When western churches back the palestinian political adgenda, they betray their own moral values.

Pastor Bob said...

John

I don't know if you are just engaged in the conversation with others or what. But if you look back over the posts you will find that I agree with you about several issues including settlements and some history.

It would be nice if you acknowledged when people try to hear you and agree with you to they extent that they (I) can.

Bob Campbell
Sharon Hill, PA

AB said...

I realize I'm joining this conversation 8 years later but I feel John is missing some fundamental pieces of information when creating his opinions and positions and in the event others like myself stumble across this blog in the future I think some facts missing from
Here should be added. I'll list just a few major points.

1. Why no mention of the Jewish Nakbah? Where 900,000-1,000,000 Jews were either murdered, expelled, and/or forced to give up their homes and lands that they owned in Arab countries for generations and generations. These Jewish refugees from Egypt, Iran, Syria, iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Jordan, etc etc etc were absorbed into Israel. These refugees were being created once Israel was only a thought in the early 1900s-the middle of the century. See for yourself the Jewish populations in Muslim countries over the last 100 yrs. Just as every other single group of refugees in history was absorbed into the neighboring countries in which they found themselves. Every single group of refugees in history..... except the so called Palestinians. Why? The right of return is just another weapon for Islam to use to destroy the Jewish state. From 700,000 refugees to now more than 7 million would immediately turn Israel into a Muslim majority. All Muslims hate Israel ina show of "solidarity" with the Palestinian cause yet not one country will take in a Palestinian refugee and make them a citizen? Instead they let them rot for decades in refugee camps in their country.


2. Jews were known as Palestinians until 1948. When overnight Palestinian Jews became Israeli Jews. It was then that yasser Arafat and the Arab league took over the name Palestinians to also use as a political weapon against Israel while giving the group of arab families living in the area from many different surrounding Arab countries a singular identity. You will not find any Muslim
Palestinian history, people, culture, or society of any kind before 1948. In fact it's quite easy to see where a Muslim Palestinian family came from simply by looking at their last name. Check here... https://m.liveleak.com/view?i=47c_1358574333

3. Israel has agreed to no less than 6 times to peace and a 2 state solution. In fact twice they were offered even more land than they themselves demanded during peace talks (Ohmert). Each and every time they refused their own state. I understand maybe you aren't getting all the land you want but at some point don't you start with your new sovereign state, whatever it may be, and start to build something? Something is better than nothing after 60 years no? And while the pals continue to reject every possible offer the Israelis should just not continue to move forward in building their state? They build communities on land that the Palestinians don't want... at least not until all of the land is theirs. Pals need to start building a country. Take in your fellow people who are refugees, create jobs, educate your young, build better lives for the future of your people instead of continuing to feel sorry for yourself while begging for financial aid from the world. There's no reason you can't continue to negotiate with Israel on items while building your own nation. But you see that's the whole point. If you agree and accept a pal state you agree to a Jewish state and the whole point is to destroy Israel and the Jews. Not share the land as neighbors.

AB said...

4. The term occupied land is actually and technically incorrect. By international and legal defenition the land is "disputed territory". The land prior to the state of Israel was under the Ottoman Empire and rule. The Turks prior to that. The romans prior to that and the Jews prior to that. There was never a Palestinian country, state, empire or rule. Never in history. Furthermore, prior to "Greater Israel" the West Bank and east Jerusalem was under Jordanian rule and the Gazza strip was under Egyptian rule. Oddly enough there was no calls of occupation and no demands of a "Palestinian" soveigrnty. Not until the Jews came into power over the areas did the Palestinians decide they were even a people different than Jordanians or Southern Syrians as they referrrd to themselves.

5. Still to this day Israel is willing to negotiate peace and live side by side with a Palestinian state. Regardless of any settlements. Land swaps can be made, settlements dismantled, and Jewish Israelis if need be, be forcibly evacuated from areas, as has been proven with gazza, if in the name of peace.


P.s. The real problem is the theft of land by the Jordanians when they seized most of the land in Transjordan (Balfour Declaration) which was to be used for the arabs. But the Jordanians stole the land which is now Jordan forcing the Jews and arabs to split a much smaller amount of land.

Frankly anyone with an open mind who seeks the truth will find it. The 2.2 billion Muslims make up nearly 25% of the worlds population and are taught daily from Childhood and in the Quran That Jews are their enemy and need to be destroyed. The 13 million Jews worldwide is .00162% of the worlds population. (20% of israels population is Muslim arabs that wouldn't want to live in any muslim Arab country over Israel)So which peoples "narrative" do you think will be heard louder and more often and with much more consistency? You hear the same lie enough times you start to believe it. It's easy to understand why so many people believe
the lies about Jews/Israelis especially when those telling the lies have all the oil we need for literally everything from
Fuel to cosmetics to plastics. Plus its a helluva lot easier to just go along with the crowd and finally it takes serious moral and mental fortitude to believe in something different than what everyone else believes in. Scapegoating others comes so naturally to humans.

I'm willing to respectfully debate anyone on any subject regarding Israel. Using facts and citing said Facts

Viola Larson said...

AB, most of that information you will find here and there on this blog, but thanks for posting it. I do have to tell you that generally I do not accept comments without the full name and city of the person so please next time you wish to comment let the readers know who you are.