Friday, December 12, 2008
A Presbytery meeting last Saturday and some questions
Sacramento Presbytery met last Saturday, December the 6th. We voted to allow Sierra Presbyterian Church of Nevada City to leave with their property. To the presbytery they are giving $75, 000. Thankfully this is not being called a gift. The agreement stipulates "In consideration for the promises and covenants contained in this Agreement, SPC agrees to pay to the Presbytery the amount of Seventy Five Thousand dollars ($75,000) on the Effective Date of Dismissal."
I had just began to get to know Pastor Scott Dickson and the commissioners from his church. I am very sad to see them go. This is the fourth Church to leave our Presbytery.
One of the motions that came before our Presbytery this past meeting came as a result of a task force originally set up to answer the question, "Why are so many Church's in our Presbytery leaving?" The question got turned into two parts, that is not only the first question but "Why are others staying? From there the elephant that sets in our room was mostly ignored and we are working on not having strife in our meetings.
One of the motions that grew out of the task force's work I believe is very helpful. That is to hold a solemn assembly. The other I have some problems with. That is:
"To direct the coordinating Council to select a task force to study and recommend the advisability of moving presbytery business to a commission model rather than a committee model."
It was passed minus the words 'and recommend.'
The Book of Order defines a committee as, "A committee is appointed either to study and recommend appropriate action or to carry out directions or decisions already made by a governing body. It shall make a full report to the governing body that created it, and its recommendations shall require actions by the governing body."
The Book of Order defines Commissions as "A commission is empowered to consider and conclude matters referred to it by a governing body. The appointing body shall state specifically the scope of power given to a commission. A commission shall keep a full record of its proceedings, which shall be submitted to its governing body to be incorporated in its minutes and to be regarded as the actions of the governing body itself."
So my first question is: Has anyone had experience with commissions instead of committees, and what do you think of this idea?
Another thing that happened at Presbytery meeting, and this is the second time, is that the statements of faith for those seeking ordination or for those ministers entering our presbytery were given out just as the candidates came to the floor. Some of the statements were excellent but there was no time to read them. The PUP report insisted presbytery is suppose to ask real questions, not just on sexual themes, but the authority of the word, the sacraments etc. It seems to me that not allowing commissioners to read the statements ahead of time is against the clear mandate of PUP.
So my second question is: When does your Presbytery receive their statements of faith and how do you feel about questioning the candidates on the floor of Presbytery? And also what kinds of questions get asked?
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11 comments:
The Presbytery of Greater Atlanta has an examination commission that examines candidates and transfers. Therefore, there is little or no substantial questioning of candidates at Presbytery meetings (it si a very large Presbytery and it is believed that the meetings would be very long otherwise). There is some wisdom to this, but once again you must trust the commission to have done a thorough job. In our current environment there is little or no trust, and deservedly so. These committees and commissions tend to be weighted toward the liberal end to an extreme.
I used to cringe and weep over the statements of faith that came through -- none being rejected. After some time (maybe because my heart has hardened or I had become jaded or both), I simply began to use them in my adult classes as examples of heresy. I would be surprised if any came through that was even moderately orthodox reformed (3 or 4 per year, mostly Korean).
Adel Thalos
Snellville, GA
In Lake Erie Presbytery, ministers transferring in from other Presbyteries meet with a small COM panel to discuss the potential call and their Statements of Faith, and later meet with the whole COM. But generally the minister does not go before the whole Presbytery (candidates for ordination do offered a call in the Presbytery do, however).
I thought the questions I received were fair overall ... I was challenged on a few points by a few people, but it was pretty calm and collegial overall. I like to think the COM as a whole would be careful with anyone coming into the Presbytery.
In my previous Presbytery, Kiskiminetas, ministers transferring in WOULD be questioned on the floor. However, the questioning was almost always pro-forma and non-challenging. I was a bit disgusted with some of my fellow evangelicals for letting a lot of questions go unasked on the floor even if they privately expressed reservations about a minister seeking a call. On one occasion, I was the ONLY person to ask even a remotely challenging question. Not a single other conservative followed up.
The next time a potentially difficult situation arose, I simply kept my mouth shut. If evangelicals don't back each other up, that does not help the process at all, IMO. We seem to be better at griping behind the scenes rather than standing up and using the rights we have under the constitution! At least in my own experience ...
John Erthein
Erie, PA
Hmm,
Interesting answers on faith statements but nothing on committees being turned into commissions. I would like to hear what others think of that also.
Viola Larson
sacramento, CA
From my side of the vineyard, the news about Sierra is good--and thanks to Sacramento for taking that action.
Re: Questions
In our previous presbytery, as soon as the question for the candidate for ordination got beyond "If you accept this call, what color will you paint your study?", there was invariably a motion to arrest the examination made, seconded and approved. No sense cluttering up the minutes with those messy questions and answers on atonement, authority of Scripture, or bodily resurrection.
Such a question at one meeting I attended in the old country was actually cut off by a motion to arrest. I was later told that the proponent of the motion did not want to see the candidate embarrased or harrassed by an inquiry on atonement theology.
In our current presbytery, at least 6 weeks prior to the presbytery meeting at which he or she will be examined, each candidate meets with the Ministry Committe for anywhere from three to six hours for a searching examination.
He or she is then examined on the floor for upwards of an hour.
So far, we have approved seven candidates for ordination (5 men, 2 women--just so those who have swallowed the PC(USA) propaganda can have that as an aid to digestion).
Teaching Elders, even if moving within the Presbytery, meet with the Ministry Committee for an hour or so, and are examined on the floor for 30 to 45 minutes.
In both venues, candidates are questioned on knowledge and views, while TE's are examined on views.
We are still developing the timing on sharing statements of faith and belief, but I think the new procedure will be to distribute them to the Presbytery 4 to 6 weeks before the meeting.
By the way, the universal response to this practice by those who have moved to the new part of the vineyard from the old has been one of refreshment and joy.
Re: committees vs, commissions
Never saw it in the old country, but I think it is a dangerous suggestion. If a commission is stacked and then given the authority to "conclude matters" such as approval for ordination, the check and balance, such as it is, afforded by final decision from the presbytery is gone.
I can imagine that the "majority" in our previous presbytery would have loved it--no more interference from the three or four churches that stood for orthodox doctrine.
It is my understanding that a presbytery may pass the examination of MWS seeking to come into the presbytery by the COM. This is in the section of the FOG on COM. Commissions are another thing together. A presbytery may give certain powers to a commission. The commission makes decisions on behalf of the presbytery. BUT the presbytery can overrule the decisions of the commission.
Bob,
Is there a place in the Book of Order that contradicts this:
The Book of Order defines Commissions as "A commission is empowered to consider and conclude matters referred to it by a governing body. The appointing body shall state specifically the scope of power given to a commission. A commission shall keep a full record of its proceedings, which shall be submitted to its governing body to be incorporated in its minutes and to be regarded as the actions of the governing body itself."
Sacramento, CA
My first call was a union church in Palo Duro Union Presbytery [UPC and PCUSA]. One of the things the Northern church, [my heritage] didn't like about the Southern church was the way they used "commissions". The phrase most used was "good old boy network" to describe what a commission was.
However, now in the rejoined PC(USA) suddenly commissions have a much warmer welcome. One of my ongoing complaints about the way we do business out here in Oregon is summed up in commissions.
A group of 3 or four ministers and elders can approve a person for a call without knowing anything about the church, the person or the process. I know, because I've been partly responsible for the problems which reared it's head in one of Portland's congregations. But, if a church wants to trade a piece of property, lease sanctuary space to a non-English congregation, take out a loan or whatever the hoops one jumps through almost always ends up before a full Presbytery meeting. At the very least the entire Presbytery council has to vote on it.
My summary is that we care more about the property than we do about people. As of this time, I've not had an adequate answer to that from anyone on trustees, COM or staff. I'm glad we're out.
Good luck in Sacramento. It's always been one of my favorite Presbyteries.
Peace, Alan
Viola
Haven't read up on it but my experience says commissions act on behalf of the presbytery.
The presbytery may override the presbytery just as it may override what it has done at a past meeting
Bob Campbell
Sharon Hill, PA
Commissions should not be widely used, in my opinion, as they have too much authority placed in a few who are not always (rarely?) representative of the whole. I wouldn't like to be a member of a presbytery who used commissions except in those situations (and they do exist) where it is simply too hard for the whole to consider and conclude a matter.
We get statements of faith in presbytery material ahead of meetings. There are times when something happens and this cannot be done but the general rule is to get it done ahead of time. We have some people who have standard questions they like to ask.
The vast majority of the time there is little true examination done compared to what I have seen at EPC presbytery meetings. For some reason a very good female candidate (orthodox evangelical) received a hard examination on the floor recently. I don't think anything was unfair, just unusual that she would face such a tough time. She was a Princeton grad, was from our presbytery and being examed for a call to a church in Indianapolis, had done fantastic on all her requirements, but she had a tough examination on the floor. Part of it was her own doing as she isn't great at responding on her feet as she get nervous (and it shows some).
I do not see how our presbytery could do much more since we are as wishy washy as they come in taking a stand on anything. If the few openly orthodox evangelicals wanted to do more it would be allowed but there wouldn't be anywhere close to a majority who would affirm there are clear essentials that must be upheld, so what would be the point?
Matt Ferguson, pastor
Hillsboro, IL
Nav,
Right after the PUP report, we had some very good questioning times on the floor. One person in particular always asked about the authority of God's word. Another about the meaning of the Sacraments and still another about the persons relationship with Christ. All of a sudden with cries of there being to much strife in our Presbytery and with several large Evangelical churches gone it is quiet on the floor.
I found only two people asking any questions this time, and we had three people entering the Presbytery.
Sacramento, CA
Sorry, I should have said Matt.
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