Thursday, January 10, 2008

The Different Aims of the Presbyterian Church USA and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church


The decision to release Fair Oaks and Roseville Presbyterian Church with their property made by my Presbytery, Sacramento, of which I am a member, is being challenged by Rev. David Thompson, his associate pastors and the Session of Westminster Presbyterian Church-- Notice of Appeal & Request for Stay

I will not try to write about this from a lawyer’s point of view which I am not, although personally reading through this materialistic bit of claptrap I don’t think any of it has any validity. But I do have an opinion from what I believe is a Christian and Biblical perspective.

I want to look first at the very end of the document and the statement, “two pastors were allowed to remain in the PCUSA and to work for the Evangelical Presbyterian church to which the property is to be given. One of these pastors is to remain as a commissioner to the PCUSA General Assembly. The Aims of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church and those of the PCUSA are different. There is here a clear, direct conflict of interest for this commissioner.” (Bold Mine)

If that statement is declared truthful, Thompson may have done everyone a favor. We can all quit arguing about whether the PCUSA is totally apostate or not because if the PCUSA’s aims are different than the EPC’s, whose aims are undoubtedly to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ’s life, death and resurrection, then whatever it is that the Presbyterian Church USA is doing is not Christian!!

The document fails to address the foundation of the church which includes the people of the Church. Thompson and those aligned with him are speaking as though their relationship is only with a denomination and not with Jesus Christ the head and foundation of “The Church.” A relationship with the head of the Church Universal puts the Christian in a relationship with all its members making them brothers and sisters. That doesn’t mean there won’t be conflicts that need to be worked out, but it does mean treating other Christians, even non-reformed ones, as real people. Not as buildings.

And the Presbytery and the two churches did work with each other as members of the one Church Universal and as brothers and sisters under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

But this document fails to explain all of the hard work that went into the agreement reached by the two churches and our Presbytery. It fails to note all the meetings our moderator and others attended in order to work out a good final agreement. It fails to note that there are still two very large churches in both of those areas, who although they are not now PCUSA are Presbyterian and Reformed. And they are both doing great evangelism as well as important social work in their two communities.

The first part of the Document disparages “a theology of a ‘Grace filled separation.” Perhaps the old Native American reference to a man without a heart is applicable here. A people of God without a heart? So these heartless people need to hear, again, a word of grace to the Church. They need a new connection to the merciful cross of Jesus Christ. They need our prayers.

“Although our iniquities testify against us, O Lord, act for your name’s sake! Truly our apostasies have been many, we have sinned against you. O Hope of Israel, its Savior in time of distress, Why are you like a stranger in the land or like a traveler who has pitched his tent for the night? Why are you like a man dismayed, like a mighty man who cannot save? Yet, you are in our midst, O Lord, and we are called by your name; Do not forsake us!” (Jeremiah 13:7-9)

24 comments:

Chris Larimer said...

I wonder if the "conflict of interest" canard would be raised were there an elder-commissioner whose livelihood is based on controverting the denomination's abortion stand? Oh wait...we pay the Washington Office to do that.

Bill Crawford said...

Funny we orthodox Christians are accused of being fundamentalists when the liberals are the one who treat anyone who disagrees with them with such scorn.

The EPC cannot have the same aims as the PCUSA? Well this is true if the so called aims are abortion on demand, hetorodoxy, and institutional totalitarianism.

As you have well pointed out if the aims are orthodoxy, evangelism, preaching Good News then apparently only the EPC has such aims.

In their human wisdom they are made out to sound like fools.

Presbyteries are the only deciding court in the matter of property. If the Synod has any integrity they would promptly say so and dump this case.

Jody Harrington said...

This lawsuit is a very sad and troubling development. I hope and pray it will not become a trend.

Viola Larson said...

Bill,
I wasn't exactly suggesting that the PCUSA didn't have aims that were concerned with preaching the gospel--I was just suggesting if the statement about aims were true then the way you put it would be true also. Thompson and his church can't have it both ways.

Viola Larson said...

Quotidian Grace,
It is very sad; I hope it doesn't either.

Presbyman said...

Viola,

I addressed this situation on my own blog (not as gently as you have here). But I did want to share an amazing paragraph from a relatively recent sermon by Rev. Thompson of Westminster Church:

Then there are those folks who want to hurt us. In my experience there are far fewer of these kinds of folk. But they are there. They may be the bullies who it doesn’t pay to cross. They may be power brokers and you are in their way. We may have something they want and they are willing to do anything to get it. They may have taken a dislike to us and they may be trying to get rid of us. They may band together as the three did on the Jericho Road and we may fall afoul of them and get hurt. They may hate us because of our faith, our party allegiance, because we are American or because we may have hurt them in some way. We may have apologized to them and we may even have been very kind to them. But their minds are made up and they will hurt us any way they can.

Actions speak louder than words.

Rev. John Erthein
Erie, PA

Viola Larson said...

Yes,
Presbyman, I read that awhile back on his church site. I find it interesting that Thompson is supposedly preaching a "positive Christianity." Hmmm.

Anyway there is a sense in which you can become so positive that you start looking around for a place to put the evil you think you are not capable of. Then evil gets dumped on a group of people instead of everyone being sinners, with some redeemed, but all sinners.
I hope I'm making sense--but thats part of what I see happening here.

Dave Moody said...

Honestly, do you think this will go anywhere? Won't it be seen for being as petty and vindictive as it is? With very little validity? I mean we're IN RELATIONSHIP with the EPC through WARC for heaven's sake! How in heaven's name can we be 'different' enough in ends to merit a 'conflict of interest'...

The session and pastor's of the church who sent this up are real tools if this is the extent of their rationale.

Viola Larson said...

Viola said

I would think that the Synod of the Pacific would find all kinds of problems arising out of a decision for Westminster and against the Presbytery.

For instance there is a pastor who is Methodist and pastor of a federated church in Orland. She is a member of our Presbytery and votes with us. But she is certainly not reformed. And there is a pastor in our presbytery who works in a Covenant Church. This challege just makes no sense. It is just vendictiveness.

Viola Larson said...

I removed a couple of comments I made and redid them. After having devotions this morning I felt I had said more than I should have in the comments and if anybody read what I wrote and was offended I apologize.

Unknown said...

Has anyone addressed the elephant in the room...shouldn't Westminster, with its declining membership and attendance, be focussed on more important things, like it's own survival?

Viola Larson said...

Stuff, people and I guess churches try to survive in all kinds of ways. But of course we are not called to survive; we are called to live in union with Jesus Christ where ever that leads, in life or in death, or as Paul would put it in abundance or want.

Chris Larimer said...

The numbers just don't lie.

Westminster's ten year decline is chronicled here.

Here's FPC Roseville's 10 year trend.

Viola Larson said...

Chris and Stuff,
I don't want to go the numbers route here. I don't think that is the right direction. The problem is David Thompson and Westminster Church challenged their own Presbytery on what I believe are faulty and materialistic charges. Nothing in their challenge points to their concern for the church under the Lordship of Jesus Christ rather it points to a worldly agenda. They have ordained two active homosexuals, one as elder the other as a deacon. (this link takes a bit of a wait)That is what they want for the whole church. Thompson also believes that Jesus is not the only way. That is also what they want for the whole church. The challenge I believe is just another effort to move that direction.

Viola Larson said...

I meant to say in that last post, for me, it isn't about who is growing or not, its who is being biblical, who is faithful to Jesus Christ.

Like Karl Barth wrote about the German Christian's doctrines, "I maintain that the Evangelical Church ought rather to elect to be thinned down till it be a tiny group and go into the catacombs than make a compact. even covertly, with this doctrine."

Athanasius said...

Viola: It might also be added that the complainants seem to be under the delusion that property has been transferred to the EPC. Since the EPC has no claim whatsoever on the property of its member congregations, it also has no property interest in whether First and Roseville join or not. Our only interest is in shared faith and mission in the name of Christ. I wonder what PCUSA's is?

Viola Larson said...

That's a very good point David. I suspect that originally the trust clause had something to do with churches that go off and become some weird branch of Christianity. (A problem in Calvin's day and always)
But if the Churches are becoming part of another Reformed body I just don't understand the problem. Our interest should be that the gospel is rightly preached and the Sacraments rightly given.

Why isn’t your profile connected to your blog?

will said...

Personally, I don't believe materialism is the motive. Materialism is the element being appealed to in the argument. I suspect strategy is involved - an attempt to affect not just these churches and this presbytery, but all of them.

And I suspect it is about punitive damages - using the instruments of power to force people to pay homage to the complainant church's philosophy. In this case, they have apparently shown zero respect for the book of order or the PC(USA). Instead, these seem to know (rightly) that they are on the side of the bureaucratic elements of the PC(USA), and that this is the trajectory of the PC(USA) regardless of what any Presbyterian anywhere may say about it.

It will happen because it is a form of political theft. (That is not to say that people who share their views see it that way - but that there is a systemic violation of the policies of the church IN ONE DIRECTION ONLY.) These express confidence in the final result - thus their one-sided observance and enforcement of policy.

Viola Larson said...

Will I totally agree with you on this:
"I suspect strategy is involved - an attempt to affect not just these churches and this presbytery, but all of them.

And I suspect it is about punitive damages - using the instruments of power to force people to pay homage to the complainant church's philosophy. In this case, they have apparently shown zero respect for the book of order or the PC(USA)."
But if you could have listened to him on the floor of the Presbytery speaking of their property...

Chris Larimer said...

Will's absolutely right. The recent news in Heartland shows that even when they have the property secured, they'll try to count coup anyway. If they can't add injury, they'll settle for insult.

It's all about demoralizing those who contemplate leaving.

Athanasius said...

Why isn’t your profile connected to your blog?

I don't know exactly. Truth be told, I've never quite been able to get the hang of Blogger accounts. About half the time I can't post on blogs that are on it.

Athanasius said...

Thanks for suggesting it, Viola. I've got it fixed now.

Viola Larson said...

Great David, cheesy horror movies huh!

Westmin said...

I am late to game here, having just discovered this blog. I have been a member of Westminster Presbyterian Church for over a decade. We have friends and memories there that keep us connected, but Thompson does not represent us. His foray into this ill-advised lawsuit is purely an exercise of his ego and love of fighting. He has manipulated our session and his associate pastors, but they too bear responsibility for this nonsense. For someone who speaks of love, it’s disgusting.