This is part three of a three part conversation between Viola Larson and Bill Crawford. It is being posted on my blog, Naming His Grace, but will be linked to at Bayou Christian Blog.
On Bill's part - a discussion about something theoretical. No part of this document should be considered in anyway as a declaration of final intent, or renunciation of jurisdiction.
“What hope for the Future?”
Viola: Bill is right don’t burn your bridges Journeyers. Recently in a conversation with a friend we talked about how one of the Reformed Churches which was extremely conservative not many years ago now has activists pushing the homosexual agenda within their church. Additionally, I believe that pluralism has this culture in such a grip that in the future every orthodox Christian will be affected by the cultures intolerance toward the Lordship of Christ.
Unless God intervenes, all of the cultural problems that are tormenting Christians in the Presbyterian Church USA will enter the safety you are seeking. You may once again need the experience, materials and clarity the renewal groups possess. And we just might need your journeying experience. While you still and always need our fellowship, we most definitely need yours.
Sunday morning, as I reached for my Bible, I discovered that one of my daughters had placed a card in it. So along with devotions I had a beautiful picture, a photograph of a young girl eating breakfast while beside her stood a gigantic lion, also eating breakfast from a larger bowl. Although the card was not meant to be a Christian card, I could not miss the symbolism of the “Lion that is from the tribe of Judah,” who has overcome. And that verse in Revelation about Jesus dining with us in our relationship with him came to mind. (Rev 3:20) There is a fellowship that enfolds all who belong to Jesus Christ, and we are all little children having breakfast beside a great Lion who draws us into his circle of redemptive love. There, in the slain lamb and the kingly lion is our hope.
Bill: Vehicles for united mission already exist. The Presbyterian Layman is already geared to be ecumenical, as is Presbyterians Renewal Ministries International. I believe both PFR and the Coalition could be revamped rapidly to straddle a multi denominational structure. It is also foundational to the current vision of the New Wineskins Association of Churches to straddle both realities – Remaining (Standing or Leaving (Journeying) Faithfully. We must face the reality that the target is small and unless the Spirit guides us we will not hit the mark.
31 comments:
Viola,
The thing that jumps out at me today is the discussion we had some time ago on my blog regarding "Greener Pastures".
The argument that there will be problems in any future reality reminds me greatly of a certain group of Journyers in the Wilderness. It went something like this: "back when we were slaves we had security, we knew the rules, it was great, now we are out here in the desert with this pillar of fire and smoke, and this God who will lead us, please oh please give us back the wonderful beauracracy in Egypt!"
However - you are dead on in this, pluralism is leading to a complete collapse of the true holiness nature of the faith. For all the supposed excesses of the Puritans we have come too far in the wrong direction (we being the entire western Church).
Bayou,
We could have a whole other discussion about the Puritans. I think they had it right in a lot of ways, certainly in most of their theology. "The Saints Everlasting Rest" by Richard Baxter and "The Fountain of Life" by John Flavel are two of my favorite books. Oh and another gem, "Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices" by Thomas Brooks.
But this is off the subject. I wanted to thank you for your last comment last night on our last post: "Those who will stand must choose Radical Renewal - risky renewal - wild acts of obedience must become the bread and water to you," will stay with me for a long time. Hopefully, with many other stayers.
I agree that if one is changing denominational fellowship to find 'safety' then one is really in for some nasty surprises!
I liken many of these decisions that we all face to the situation that Tolkien's characters faced in the Third Age "War of the Rings".
As a Christian author, Tolkien wove in so many biblical themes in his works that it is hard NOT to point them out.
But one of the main things that I take from the decisions faced by the heroes of the book is when they must face reality: That the war will be faced by all, no matter where they choose to make their stand. Even those who flee into their fortified homes will one day have to face the rising armies of the enemy.
The choice is not whether to fight or avoid fighting. It is really where one wants to make one's stand. In the end, the choice of standing with those who will fight alongside you with the same conviction is the best option. It's not free from pain or cost certainly, but it is the only option that has a chance of success.
Who do we choose to stand with? And does our choice of denominational affiliation affect that choice of companions?
Maybe yes, maybe no.
But sooner or later, we need to decide if those who are alongside us have the same goal and the same interest in really confronting the true nature of our adversary.
At the present moment in my spiritual life, I have to say (with out in any way renouncing my ordination vows or maligning my fellows in the evangelical cause) that the PCUSA is not in any way equipped for this fight. And our choosing to stand within the PCUSA -might- cause us all to be dragged down...and our children with us.
That's where I am today.
Your thoughts?
Hi Toby,
Thanks for your thoughts. I do have to laugh not at you but at myself. I recently invited one of my daughters and her husband to join the PCUSA, not at my church, but a small church in the same city. I knew they were looking for a new church home and I knew this church was a perfect fit for them. It was!
What God is doing I do not know but he certainly does. And as I have tried to show in our posts faithfulness is obedience to Jesus Christ.
I also wanted to say I don't think a lot of the leadership in the church is ready for this kind of fight either, they are not even aware of any kind of spiritual battle. But the Lord of the church that equips his people is aware and sufficient
Viola,
As a small church pastor, I can say "bravo!" for your encouraging your daughter and her husband to join a small congregation.
I believe that there is no better place to learn the faith and be with God's people than in the very places that the world disdains--the small, the relational and the un-trendy.
That's why I am where I am and why I choose to raise my children in a small church.
But sooner or later, we all will face the battle and there is no way to avoid it:
"'Sleep again, and do not be afraid!' said Gandalf. 'For you are not going like Frodo to Mordor, but to Minas Tirith, and there you will be as safe as you can be anywhere in these days. If Gondor falls, or the Ring is taken, then the Shire will be no refuge.'"
--The Return of the King,
Excellent quote for the time.
I wonder if you have ever read Debbie Berkley's article on VOW's web site, "What I Found in The Lord of the Rings," at http://www.vow.org/viewpoints/essays/04-03-17-dmberkley-what_i_found_in_the_lord_of_the_rings.html. Or its under viewpoints. I haven't been able to figure out how to link on comments yet?
Viola,
thanks.
Toby, I'm reading "The Organic Church" right now and one of the great points he makes is that before the battle of Helms Deep Aragorn asks Theodin to ride with him into battle, instead Theoden chooses to go to Helms Deep - which is nearly overwhelmed and at the last moment as the last door is about to be crushed Aragorn asks him again "Will you ride with me?" And as they do the rider in White appears with the Morning Star and rides to their salvation.
It's a vivid image of the calling of the Church.
Now I am feeling a need to go back and read Tolkien's trilogy again.
I came here from Presbyweb and was pleased to discover... I know all you people (at least in blog-world). :)
This may be a silly observation or reminder, and I loved the LOTR allusion. The Shire is not the enemy; neither is the PCUSA. I believe the church (whether PCUSA, EPC, or any other strip) is the bride of Christ and any fighting we do is for her, not against her.
Our enemy is not flesh and blood, but is Satan and sin. Some may rightly decide that our shire is irretrievably lost. Others, as I do, are called to remain, as bleak as it may seem.
After the Aug. '06 Coalition meeting I wrote the following... it still describes my calling. I was reminded of it reading the responses to bayou and Viola's posts:
Many friends have pointed to different biblical people and passages to talk about the denominational situation. I identify with Hosea. My ability to be faithful may be challenged by my denomination's unfaithfulness, but it is not dependent on it. Many dear friends have spent a lot of time explaining to me why it is time to leave, and one pressed me that the PCUSA isn't equivalent to Israel. I went back and looked at Hosea... it starts out with God telling Israel and Hosea through the naming of his children that they Israel is no longer His people. That doesn't matter to Hosea's calling, nor to mine. That the PCUSA is unfaithful or even apostate really doesn't matter! Until God releases me from this call, I seek to be faithful and obedient in the PCUSA by proclaiming Jesus Christ and the Word of God and obeying God's call on my life. There is no other "line in the sand" for me.
That my testimony and effectiveness is compromised by the PCUSA is a concern, but comparable to the many married women in my church who attend church alone. Their husbands do not care about church (or even faith), and some might judge and snicker and say, "Where's the father? Where's the husband?" But, I respect and applaud and support the wives who come alone. That support is what I regularly ask of PCA friends who take potshots at the PCUSA. The bride's unfaithfulness tarnishes me, but does not prevent me or my local congregation from being faithful. For those that will look past the surface, they might even see a picture of Christ. That I might be rediculed like Hosea pains me; that I might portray Christ like Hosea thrills and inspires me.
Many roll their eyes at the "stay, fight, win" strategy (or at the apparent ridiculousness of stay-fight-go down with the ship). Just as I do not measure the "success" of my worship services by the attendance, but by faithfulness in worship, I am not here to win or to lose. I am here to stay, fight, and be faithful. God will do what He wants with the PCUSA. And I am not fighting against the PCUSA, I am fighting for the bride of Christ, so tattered and beaten and sometimes unrecognizable in this part of the Church universal. In Christ I love the PCUSA and in obedience to God I am called to the PCUSA. Like Hosea's children, my hope is that my local church and the networks of those who may stay can woo and call their mother back to the Lord.
Pastor Austell,
You have just said everything I have been trying to say although perhaps not so well.
But I also was, mostly in our first post, pleading with all, the renewal stayers and as Bill identifies them, the journeyers, to follow Christ without shooting at each other.
I mean I didn't say it so well not you Pastor Austell. I shouldn't write on the run!
I do believe we have created some peace among us with these posts. At least I hope so.
Robert,
Was the Protestant Reformation a mistake?
Brian
"That the PCUSA is unfaithful or even apostate really doesn't matter!"
I hate to disagree with you Robert but it is a huge deal if the body in which you are connectionally bound by your Ordination has become a den of Satan. What could one possibly gain from being a part of a dead body?
And another thing...
I become confused and a little upset when conservatives or liberals refer to the PC(USA) as the "Bride of Christ". The PC(USA) is not the Bride of Christ and neither is any other denomination.
Viola, please call me Robert. I feel like I know you because I read everything you write on VOW.
I read what you wrote and laughed, but I knew what you meant. :)
Brian, that's like asking a remarried friend if the divorce to the first wife was a mistake.
That analogy makes me question, too, whether continued reformations are the logical application. True, the hallmark of the Reformation is a Church always reforming... but not until we become perfect... but according to the Word of God.
As I strive to reform my own life and ministry, I look to the OT prophets and God's people Israel and see the example of a faithful God calling faithful prophets to rebuke, prophecy, and call to repentance an unfaithful wife.
My particular calling, both by the Word and the Spirit, is to remain in this manner. If one wonders whether I have "mis-heard" that call, of course it's possible. But by virtue of the challenging context in which I minister, I examine and question and "listen" for clarification of that call very often.
I think many PCUSA pastors will leave to go to the EPC in the next two years. I pray God's blessing on them. Many are dear friends. I may serve alongside them again one day. But for now, I covet your prayers for me and for those who remain, seeking to be faithful to a distinct call.
In Christ,
Robert
Robert,
I think you have said, really, all that can be said. Lets all pray for one another.
Benjamin wrote:
And another thing...
I become confused and a little upset when conservatives or liberals refer to the PC(USA) as the "Bride of Christ". The PC(USA) is not the Bride of Christ and neither is any other denomination.
Benjamin, I'm not sure if your point of disagreement is because:
1. You may be saying that the Church is not the Bride of Christ (what about Ephesians 5:22-33 and many references in the OT, unless you don't see a correspondence between Israel and the Church?)
2. You may be making a distinction between a denomination and "the Church" (and thus "the Bride") But Paul writes to the Corinthians - a subset of the whole - in this language in 2 Cor. 11:2ff)... and in the OT a tribe (or Northern/Southern kingdom) of Israel is as much "the bride" (or harlot bride) as the whole. And making this distinction too strongly leaves one without a "Church" to point to. We believe in one Lord, one faith, one baptism... and one holy and Apostolic Church - despite denominational division...
3. You may be making a distinction between visible/invisible church, or wheat/tares... but that's the whole power of the OT imagery of an unfaithful bride... she is not spotless until Christ makes her so.
4. You may be noting that Jesus used bridal/marriage language to talk about the Kingdom of Heaven, not the church. This is true, but that does not negate the OT, Pauline, and early church usage of this rich metaphor.
5. You may be saying that the PCUSA is apostate and therefore "cut off" from being part of the Church or the Bride. And that's the point I was making in my post - that Israel was far further 'gone' than the PCUSA has yet thought of being... and I believe the Lord would yet call her to repentance, faithfulness, and to come home.
I'm sorry if my reference to the bride of Christ stirred up strong emotion, but without you elaborating, it's hard to know how to respond adequately.
Benjamin wrote:
I hate to disagree with you Robert but it is a huge deal if the body in which you are connectionally bound by your Ordination has become a den of Satan. What could one possibly gain from being a part of a dead body?
Dang, I'm procrastinating on my sermon.
I didn't say "it doesn't matter" but that "it doesn't matter to my calling." I am not in it for personal gain, but to serve the Lord. And if God says preach to a valley of dead bones, I'll do it. If God tells me to stay married to a cheating, sexed-up, unfaithful wife, I'll do it.
That was the point of my post... that I'm not a pastor to be comfortable, agreed with, praised, or any other earthly reason. I am called to proclaim Jesus Christ and him crucified to my family, my local church, my community, and as is clear, to my denomination. If my daughter, church members, neighbors, or executive presbyter reject me, that does not change my calling.
That is the heart of my calling. Many days, it is so challenging I weep. But I find solace in scripture and God's history, that no amount of disobedience, heresy, apostasy, or rebellion seemed to be out of the reach of His Word, Spirit, and grace.
I'm not at all trying to be the cavalier "stay-and-fight" guy. I'm trying to be intensely honest in a context where people are really wrestling over their present place and calling within or out of the PCUSA. If I've come across otherwise, I apologize.
In Christ,
Robert
Robert,
I didn't know Presbyterian Pastors could preach that kind of sermon!! Thank you. I have been busy trying to cook dinner for a tired hungry husband. Fried fish Bayou.
I see I didn't need to say anything. Once again you said all that needs to be said.
Viola and I are seeking a deeper honesty here; many who would stay will tend to say that those who leave are seeking the "idol of greener pastures" many who leave will say that those who stay are seeking the "idol of the Shire" (well actually only a few of us LOTR nerds).
What we must admit is that there are plenty of both of those in our midst. Vitality cannot allow those who are seeking idols to hide behind words (I'm not accusing you - your heart pours through your writing).
Hosea is one of the toughest books of the bible. I still can choke up very unexpectidly when I read chapter 11. But let us not forget that Hosea was told to marry a prostitute to make a point - that Israel was not as she was supposed to be. From the beginning she was supposed to seperate herselves from the pagan world. First from the philistines, then from the other pagans around her, but she never listened.
There is absolutely no application of Hosea that says - therefore we should all go out and marry prostitutes. The universal timeless truth is that it tells us that God can still love us even when we are that bad off.
I am willing to believe there are a number of us who will be called directly by God to this form of sacrifice. Sounds like you and Viola are in that rank.
I too pray for us all.
I've been out today - first at a COM meeting and then teaching part three of a Reformation Renew and Review class on Luther.
I can't talk about the COM meeting (oh there were things to tell) but the Reformation study - Wycliff, Huss, Luther so far - everyone willing to die rather than continue in a institution that was in fact becoming hostile to the true Word of God.
I think we all cry together - How long oh Lord?
Do not tarry.
Bayou,
You are very kind in what you are saying, but I do want to disagree just a little. At least Huss and Luther, I am not sure about Wycliffe, were forced out of their Church. In fact if I remember my Church history correctly I don't think Huss was actually ever any thing but Catholic although he would have been excommunicated when he was burned at the stake.
I think that is the line some of us have drawn in the sand, unless God says otherwise. That is, being forced out.
With this I concur with all my heart:
"I think we all cry together - How long oh Lord?
Do not tarry."
Robert,
"Brian, that's like asking a remarried friend if the divorce to the first wife was a mistake."
I don't know what that means.
Viola,
I catch a hint that you are nervous about having these conversations and would prefer not to have them anymore. Shall I stop writing? I am a guest here and have no wish to be rude.
B
Bayou,
"There is absolutely no application of Hosea that says - therefore we should all go out and marry prostitutes. The universal timeless truth is that it tells us that God can still love us even when we are that bad off."
Well said, I think.
Not only that, God later did divorce Israel (the Northern Kingdom)to whom Hosea was preaching.
"The Lord said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce." Jer 3:6-8
That's why the 10 lost tribes of Israel are lost.
I suppose the question, then, we should ask is "Is the PCUSA more like Israel, or more like Judah?"
BTW, as an Amillenialist, I would argue that Jesus' cleansing of the temple and his prophecy against it followed by the destruction in 70 AD and the complete annihilation of the Jewish state in 125 AD were his "divorce" of Judah as well.
Rev. Brian Carpenter,
You wrote,
“I catch a hint that you are nervous about having these conversations and would prefer not to have them anymore. Shall I stop writing? I am a guest here and have no wish to be rude.”
I am not nervous about having these conversations, however, I feel that in the comments section of another posting I already answered your question and in this comments section Robert very clearly answered your question.
I don’t know about Robert but once I answer a question I generally move on—it seems redundant to keep belaboring the point. That probably doesn’t make for a good blog keeper but nonetheless that is how I feel. I can refer you to my article on Voices of Orthodox Women “The Church as Mother, Nurturer and Ground of the Truth. You will find it at www.vow.org. on the left hand side under viewpoints.
You also write about being an Amillenialist, which I also am, and you write about the ten lost tribes of Israel. I think you are starting a whole other discussion. Since I note on your blog you ascribe to conspiracy theories I am reluctant to go that direction with you.
However, in an article I have on my web site “Naming The Grace” I have an article about a “Christian Identity” pastor, Pete Peters, I discuss his views on the lost tribes which I am certain are different then yours. He believes the white races are the lost tribes. However, this explanation will do for you too. I write,
“After the Assyrian captivity of Northern Israel and the Babylonian Captivity of Judah and Benjamin, the twelve tribes became once again a complete nation. Much of the Northern kingdom was gone forever and the emphasis would no longer be on a kingdom of tribes, still, there are indications that all of Israel was included in the peoples of Jesus day. In fact, after the return of the captives of Babylon Ezra includes in his count ‘The men of Bethel and Ai, two hundred twenty three.’ (Ezra 2:28) These were ‘centers of the idolatrous worship of the northern kingdom.’ In the New Testament Luke 2:36 refers to the prophetess Anna who was ‘the daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Asher.’ Paul, when speaking before King Agrippa about ‘the hope of the promise made by God’ to the Israelites, states: ‘the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day.’ (Acts 26:7a)
The article is: “Pastor Pete Peters and The Greatest Discovery of Our Age,” and you can read it at http://www.naminggrace.org/id54.htm. There are some other articles there also. One on conspiracy theories you might be interested in.
I don’t know if any of this is relevant to anything you are thinking but there it is.
I'm sorry, Viola, but I don't feel like I have been answered. Maybe I should make myself clearer. Maybe I should just shut up.
Briefly, my position is that the scriptures actually command you to leave. If I'm right, any "sense of call" which encourages you to stay is not he voice of the Holy Spirit and is a grave error.
That is your position. It is not mine nor many others. So perhaps we can agree to disagree.
Certainly we can. I will trouble you no further.
B
P.S. the Amill comment was made contra Dispensationalism with its obsession with ethnic Jews as a group, the land of Israel, and the dispensational insistence that God will revert back to types and shadows and reinstitue the Temple worship he so expressly rejected after the coming of Christ. I don't think God is done with converting individual Jews (my wife is one of them)and I expect to see a great ingathering of Jews in the last days of these last days.
Blessings,
B
Good news Brian,
I agree!
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