Monday, September 3, 2012

The real answers and the false ones: More Light Presbyterians and the suffering

It is time to change the story line. More Light Presbyterians with their every article are trying to make Christians who do not agree with same gender sex appear as bullies and homophobic. Recently MLP highlighted two news articles, one erroneously suggesting that an evangelical church is homophobic, to another, MLP added false information in order to make it appear as though the homelessness of some LGBT teens was caused by homophobic Christians.

The first news article is from the New York Times. In the newspaper the title is, “After Gay Son’s Suicide, Mother Finds Blame in Herself and in Her Church,’ the More Light site has it as, “Jane Clementi’s Church Failed Her – Your Story Can Make a Difference.” The second news story is introduced on the MLP site as “Keeping All Youth Safe and Off the Streets.”That is an introduction to a Huffington Post article, Getting LGBT Homeless Youth Off the Streets by Laura A. Hughes.

The first story is about the agonizing experience of a mother whose gay son commits suicide. She is an evangelical who supposedly blames both herself and her church for her son’s death. The MLP authors added to her blame of the church with this:
Her youngest son, Tyler, felt strongly that she didn’t accept him, largely because of the teachings of her church. The truth is, she was on a journey towards understanding and acceptance in spite of her church’s dangerous theology, but when Tyler ended his life by jumping off the George Washington Bridge, there was no more time for conversation. (Italics mine)
But in an article, Guilt, grief and God: a gay son’s suicide, about the New York Times article, asks a question and gives some explanations. The question is:
Anybody catch the story on Tyler Clementi’s parents leaving their evil, gay-bashing evangelical church?
The answer the author, Bobby Ross Jr. of GetReligion, gives is that the New York Times never bothered to ask the church or pastor of the church any questions. (Neither did the MLP author.) But a different news outlet did. According to Ross Jr. the Religious News Service did and this is the answer the RNS gave about Pastor Rob Minor of Grace Church:
Rob Minor, senior pastor for Grace Church, said on Monday (Aug. 27) that his church teaches that “God’s ideal” is sexual abstinence before marriage, and monogamous heterosexual marriages. “But we also understand that we live in a world where everyone is striving to reach God’s ideal,” Minor said. Minor said he and an associate pastor relayed that message to Jane Clementi before she left the church.

“We love Jane and Joe and Jimmy and the rest of the family very much, and we respect their decision,” Minor said.

Minor added that the church does not “bash” or “judge” people, nor does it make homosexuality a priority issue.

“The fact is at least in the six years I’ve been here, I never preached on it, never talked on it,” Minor said. “It’s just not been an issue for us.”
That doesn’t sound unloving, and certainly not dangerous.

The second story is really just a piece about a place that takes in and helps LGBT young people who are on the streets because they have been kicked out of their homes (for various reasons) or because their families are too dysfunctional to be of any help. But the MLP author puts it this way:
Many homeless LGBT youth were rejected by their families because of religious homophobia, whether or not the families were active churchgoers. (Italics mine.)
Really! The first person highlighted in this article is Crystal:
"Crystal," a resident in our transitional living program, has one such story. While she was out to her family as a lesbian, she was sleeping in a closet in a home she shared with 25 other family members. Most of Crystal's family is addicted to drugs and used them in front of her siblings -- and while they were normally somewhat tolerant of her relationship with her girlfriend, they regularly picked fights with her regarding her sexuality when high. Her family's poverty, combined with her sexuality, forced her to leave home.
Where does that paragraph say anything about “religious” homophobia? Rather it was “drug induced” homophobia. It is truly a combination of poverty and drug addiction that caused the problems this poor young woman is dealing with.

So why in the midst of these tragedies is MLP attempting to verbally persecute the Church of Jesus Christ, to the point of either exaggerating the information or creating false information? Why are they using others, who are suffering, to further their own agendas? There is a complex problem in the PCUSA and in other mainline denominations where most problems are seen as correctable by advocacy and political change. Certainly some are, but the suicidal death of a child and the needs of a child caught in a dysfunctional and drug addicted family cannot always be solved in that manner.

The Church of Jesus Christ has two duties here. One is to love and care for the hurts of these families. The other is to keep proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ; offering news about the one who through his death and resurrection forgives and gives new life.

My husband asked an interesting question concerning this subject. How would the early church have handled these problems? The answer is very clear—although many may not want to hear the answer—the gospel is wrapped around it.

The apostle Paul in one of his letters to the Corinthians when writing about the multiple problems of both their secular society and their church states:
Do not be deceived neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10)
But them he goes on with the solution.
Such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (6:11)
Here is the Church’s calling, not just to the LGBT community but to all, including the covetous, the drunkards and the rest on that list. The Church is called to proclaim the newness of life, the forgiveness of sins, the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, the justification that is ours in Jesus Christ. The life of Jesus, his death on the cross—his shed blood, that is the answer when applied to our lives.

And there is a longer list of sins that begins in Romans 1 with the sin of same gender sex but it goes on to include: envy, murder, deceit, malice, gossiping, slander, hating God, being insolent, arrogant and boastful, inventing evil, disobedient to parents, lacking understanding, untrustworthy, unloving and unmerciful. The list covers just about all sin and later, several chapters later, Paul sums it all up with:
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
But again there is the same solution. Those next several chapters of Romans are filled to over flowing with the grace of God flowing from Jesus Christ and how that overcomes our sinful nature:
But God demonstrates his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God though him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God though the death of his Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:8-1o)
So the early church, the biblical church directed the needy, the sinner to the forgiveness and life found in Jesus Christ. And in that community of redeemed sinners was strength, discernment and resurrection power for living a new life. But there is something more, the church permeated society with the goodness of the gospel. Lights came on here and there in the darkness until in some places there was abundant light. Light enough for whole nations to see by. As the Scripture and the hymn proclaim, “in Christ there is no darkness at all.”

But to return to the beginning of my posting, More Light Presbyterians are slandering those who abide by the authority of Scripture. And that is darkness which, in the absence of light also grows. It will become darker—yet the light, the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ shines in the darkness and cannot be extinguished.

Picture by Ethan McHenry


Anonymous said...

When reading a news story, adjectives tell you a lot about the mindset of the writer. The MLP writer felt compelled to add "dangerous" to the theology of the church. It wasn't enough for him/her to falsely attribute the problem to the church's theology, it was because of the church's "dangerous" theology.

MLP loses all credibility when one reads how over the top it is becoming. It has been bad, and now in ascendancy, it is getting worse. Shudder when you consider people like that wielding absolute power over what theology is allowed for your church, or what you will be allowed to believe or speak!

Jim Berkley
Roslyn, WA

Anonymous said...

Viola, "evangelicals" are not abiding by the authority of Scripture.

As I was trying to point out to you before, in an earlier conversation before you cut it off because I kept giving you information from the left and the right you did not like, Evangelicals are using A, not THE, and not the Best, understanding of scripture.

With results I have seen first hand in my life.

If you use the "the Bible says it" approach without greater understanding on this topic, I will, over and over, remind you, for all to see, that conservatives from Albert Mohler to the progressives in our own church acknowledge that womens ordination, and the approach to scripture that lead to it (correctly I will add) also leads to inclusion of, and acceptance of, GLBT people and our families.

It's both or neither Viola, not either or.

Rev. Berkely, some time ago I was working with a kid, 17, who was kicked out of his house by his fundamentalist Baptist Parents (I should add I don't know which kind of Baptist, he just said they were Baptists, and that is a diverse group). He was told he was sinful, dirty and vile. That was damaging enough to a kid. The life he lead on the streets to survive, I wont go into here. Trust me, no one who reads this will want me to. The conservative theology was dangerous for him, and his sad family.

My own case, of hearing about the "evil of Sodom and Gohmorrah" and the anti gay attitudes, always presented "with love" (oh please) lead me to my own suicide attempt as a kid. Happily, I lived. The theology is dangerous.

I have an acquaintance who is trying desperately not to be gay. He even, because of this conservative and dangerous theology, has gotten married. They will divorce soon, as, as she put it, I love him like a brother now, but he is always gonna' be gay". The theology was dangerous to her, and because of the sense of now having a failed marriage on top of his guilt (he still can't get past being told he has chosen gayness, if only by acting on his natural inclinations of attraction to men), it was pretty dangerous to the mental health of him also.

an old friend named Bart told his dad, a greet you at the door with a rosery Catholic, that he was gay. He was called an abomination as he was assaulted with a board. The theology was dangerous to him. His forehead still carries the scars.

I found a very GLBT welcoming congregation when I was 21. I was encouraged to love God, do justice and be faithful and honorable to the love of my life. We became, in our youth, a wonderfully happy church going couple that spent our evenings working with our fellow Christians at a food pantry, or at church bbq's. A classmate of mine was raised a fundamentalist. His church told him he was an abomination, and unclean. He felt he had no church home, and, having no home, went wild.
He is living with HIV and a lot of self hatred now.
The theology was certainly dangerous to him, and I DIRECTLY give credit to this denomination and it's love and welcome of me and my husband (23 years now) credit for being healthy, happy, and involved in a wonderful congregation that is diverse and inclusive and loves and worships God to His glory.

No. Dangerous is the appropriate word.

And No, these are not isolated examples, and no, just saying "well their families and churches should not have treated them this way" is not good enough.

The friend who has tried (mightily, I will admit) to be 'ex gay' (sic) was not assaulted physically, and was only told he was an abomination "in love".

MLP is not losing credability Rev. Berkely. It is just being honest, and honesty, which people can see (and relate to) is the reason its views are ascendent.


Viola Larson said...

Thanks Jim,
For emphasizing what is perfectly clear, the rise of tyranny in matters of theology, by those who have touted tolerance for so long. When sin wins over a person or a group it grows deeper, broader and darker. Kind of like C.S. Lewis’s thoughts in “The Weight of Glory” we are all growing into splendors or monsters. That is a paraphrase: )

Viola Larson said...

The stories you tell would be considered 'hear say' in a court of law. I was writing about the falseness written in some articles. One can read the articles and see the problem, it is documented.

I'll stick by the word of God any day. Christ came to save sinners including me. That is what Christianity is about. He forgives us and begins a transformation in our lives. Without that it doesn't matter what we say or insist on. God's word has the final say.

Anonymous said...

No, you are sticking to YOUR interpretation of the word of God.

Will you be doing so with the clear admonition to stay silent, as a woman, in church? Such is the conservative stance of the vast majority of the world church you so often refer to after all.

Call them heresay all you want.
to many people know to many people first hand who have suffered at the hands of dangerous theology that has lead to abuses like this.

Here say.

You call this here say.

And you wonder why, when people listen to/read both sides of this, your side loses? Do you honestly think that people, especially young people who personally know a lot of Gay people don't hear these examples and know people who have suffered? They do.

Barna points out that the number one descriptive used by youth to describe the Church (big C) is Anti gay.

Go read the study the other things I mentioned, it isn't heresay. I could get the court records for Barts assault. the other stories are easily verified also.

Best to just dismiss them though...they might make people think. Say in a court of law they would be called here say.

And best to stick to your own interpretation standards on scripture and how to understand it...even though the same approach would negate your own ordination, as Good Dr. Mohler would point out.
Otherwise the whole arguement falls apart, doesn't it?


Reformed Catholic said...

Gene ..

you claim that Viola has dangerous theology, but isn't your theology just as dangerous?

You said: "that conservatives from Albert Mohler to the progressives in our own church acknowledge that womens ordination, and the approach to scripture that lead to it (correctly I will add) also leads to inclusion of, and acceptance of, GLBT people and our families. "

I'd like to see where Dr. Mohler 'acknowledges' that the approach used in Scripture for woman's ordination will lead to such a conclusion?

A Biblical case can be made for woman's ordination, I'd like to see the Scripture that can be used to justify sexual acts outside the bonds of a biblically defined marriage.

Rob Harrison said...

"womens ordination, and the approach to scripture that lead to it (correctly I will add) also leads to inclusion of, and acceptance of, GLBT people and our families"

Not to put too fine a point on it, that's codswallop. Complementarians argue that because they think they can use it to scare egalitarian evangelicals, and of course liberals want to argue that, but it's simply not true. If nothing else, there is absolutely not a single passage in Scripture which even remotely suggests that it's a sin to be a woman.

Anonymous said...

To Gene in Atlanta,

Once again your bully approach to hoarding this blog is showing its ugliness. Your tangents are predictable. As usual they are filled with vile and present nothing but the same unprincipled propaganda over and over and over…... You have hardened your heart to God’s Word. Not even Viola’s Christ like presentation of Scriptures has penetrated the stone within you. Your indigent defense of your sinful lifestyle truly shows the piercing edge of God’s truth. Truth in which you, even in your own words: “Oh, and I never did or will acknowledge that the Bible says being gay is sinful,” can ever escape. Just because you feel your lifestyle is not sin does not make it so. However, I ask you to identify Scripture which, in fact, specifically supports homosexual sex? Viola has been most gracious in her use of God’s Word to show the utter destitute you are. We are all destitute sinners! Yet, you have ears but, you do not hear.
Quite frankly, I have grown weary listening (or in this case, reading) your antinomian rants continuously belittling Believers in Christ. Part of the love of Christ is telling the truth even when it is not what Gene wants to hear. If you think Jesus was shy about pointing out the sin in people just read Matthew 22 and 23. Let the Word of God speak. Let not Gene’s “nevertheless written by men and prone to error” statement ever, ever have any validity.

Boris in North Carolina

Noel said...

They think they're doing something heroic, but the MLP and their long-faced sympathizers are rehashing a story of which very few people care to be a part. Their overly-sensitive eye for offense is directly connected to their mouths--with no editor in between--resulting in a regular tirade of accusations. Homophobes! Unfair! Genderists!--like a bad car alarm going off at all hours. They have become a worse image of rigid, inflexible judgmentalism than they ever met in the Church--a twisted, agonized caricature of the joyless puritans they imagine most Christians to be.

If they felt half as in love with Jesus as they do alternate sexualities, the church might still be growing.

We can expect history to more likely remember them as heretics than heroes.

Anonymous said...

Saleh, The words you quote me as quoting come from one of the confessions of the PCUSA. They are valid, and they stand.

Noel, sorry. You will have to get used to it. We are correct in pointing out the injustices of the world. Notice I am not the one who is angry. You are.
The responses of conservatives who claim to be people of faith on this issue often saddens me. But, I have seen so, so, so many repent and mature in their faith on this issue that I have hope for all who still think as you do.

As per the idea that we are rehashing a story that few people want to be a part you see the world around you? Thats not just me speaking, that everyone from Barna to Gallup to the ratings of the most popular TV shows to the corporate policies of most of the Fortune the votes in the Presbyteries two years ago.

Hi Rob and reformed Catholic. :)

I was hoping you would ask that.
Go to

do a search for "Women Preachers, Divorce and a Gay Bishop-What's the Link?" On Aug 5, 2003

The article starts with a comparison of Womens and GLBT ordination, and how they are similar (including the reasctions to it I will add), and follows with Dr. Mohler writing..

"The anchor gaveme the opportunity to Deny Rev. Russells's linkage of these issues (Womens and GLTB ordination) but I had no intention of denying the link. As a matter of fact, this linkage is about the only arguement upoin which honest conservatives and liberals can agree. It comes down to this: The arguemtns used in support of the ordination of women require the dismissal or "reinterpretation" of specific Bbilical texts which disallow women in the teaching office. The same is true of arguemtns for the ordination of divorced persons-and for homosexuals(sic).
Paragraph " I am not accusing all pooponants of womens ordination of supporting the ordinatino of homosexuals (sic). But I am insisting that the basic hermeneutical approach (method of interpreting the Scriptures) behind these arguments has a common core- a relativinzing or prohibitive Biblica texts in the name of "liberation", whether of women, or divorced persons, or homosexuals(sic).

Reformed Catholic, you asked, and there is it. There is a reason the SBC wont ordain women. Or most of the Church (big C). If we take the approach to scripture they do to avoid ordaining GLBT people, they will point out the hypocricy of our position. As it happens, we WERE right to ordain women and not take a literalist approach. We were right to do the same with ordainging GLTB pastors also.


Check with Duba, Achtemier, Rogers, Bruggerman and Guthrie (among others) who made the Biblical case for GLBT ordination. Many of them are conservatives it is worth noting.
There is so much scholarship on it it would take pages and pages of this blog.
And, I would point out, it was written by scholars who are assocaited with our Seminaries, are recognized as leaders in their fields (or were prior to their death in Guthries case)

Noel, I was driven to a suicide attempt.
Kids are kicked out of their homes and on the street.
men (and women) feel utterly rejected by a church that hates them "in love" and cut off ties from church...and often, from any relationship to God...a tragedy.
People suffer for years with a sense of self hatred and self loathing because of whom they are.

But, we have "overly-sensitive eye for offense".

People can read what you write you know, and most of them, not living in some conservative cocoon, can be, and are influened by it.
Keep typing.

comments like that, while hurtful, only help my side.


Anonymous said...

To Gene in Atlanta,

So that’s the best you can do? Pathetic response to say the least. It is very telling how astute you are with quoting other folks and maybe even a PCUSA document (I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt) yet, Biblical support is absent. Could it be that you have none? Because there is none! Throwing in a bunch of quotes from other sin induced humans, educated or not, is equivalent to bailing out a sinking ocean liner with a Dixie cup. So allow me to perhaps educate you on even a minimum scale. “Your side” as you put it, indicates your own self proclaimed division. Jude address’ your side: “For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Verse 4. “Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries………The Lord rebuke you!” Verse 8 and 9b.

Enough said. You continue to live in your little, shrinking PCUSA world. I’ll take my chances holding the Word of God close to my heart. Knowing that even in my sin; repentance garners God’s mercy to still call me beloved. I pity you. If only you truly knew the freedom walking with Jesus brings. I will pray for you. May God convict your heart to search for spiritual rebirth. It is not too late, yet.

Boris in North Carolina

Alan said...

Gene is simply going back to what the PC(USA) did a few years ago, to listen to the stories. There is value in that and I am sorry that such abusive and 'dangerous' situations happened.

However, I found it interesting when I shared stories of a youth I worked with who 'came out' it was rejected by the pro-gay groups because his exact words were, "I chose this lifestyle because (name withheld) showed me love when no one else did." BTW (name withheld)was a 40 year old man who molested this 16 year old kid.

Ah, but my story isn't valid because people don't choose gayness and they don't abuse people.


Anonymous said...

Thats correct Alan. He was not being honest with you, because no one ever choose to be gay. It is who we are born to be. And NO repeat NO GLBT person ever used the word "lifestyle".
I appreciate that you are sincerely saddened at the losses and pain I describe.
You make reference to listening to stories...yeah. we did. We NEEDED to.
Problems are not solved if many of those doing the hurting do not even realize their is a problem, or minimize it (which is even worse)

Poor Selah. Are you even PCUSA? The 'document' you disparage is a lot more than that, it is an accepted Confession(!) of the Church. With the understandings the church attains from it, we are able to approach and understand scripture far better than we would be otherwise.

Belittling education and educated people, even conservatives ones, when they don't agree with you is the SUREST SIGN that the other sign is winning an arguement Selah. Thanks for the confirmation that I quoted and understood correctly the position of the President of the Flagship Seminary of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary correctly, a leader and luminary of the religious right. (although I had already made inquiries to be sure I had).


Viola Larson said...

"Belittling education and educated people, even conservatives ones, when they don't agree with you is the SUREST SIGN that the other sign is winning an argument Selah. Thanks for the confirmation that I quoted and understood correctly the position of the President of the Flagship Seminary of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary correctly, a leader and luminary of the religious right."

First of all once or twice I disagree with Albert Mohler-he didn't do a good job on that post because he did not quote any scripture about women or work with other's exegeses doing proper argumentation. And therefore it is easy for you to use that because you don’t have to deal with scripture at all you just use him and his article. I gave you some good reasons, a few blog postings back, of why women can be ordained but LGBT people biblically cannot. You ignored what I said. You now face three possibilities:

1-I and you are both wrong; therefore you and I are sinning.

2- I am right and you are wrong therefore you are still sinning.

3. You are right and I am wrong. But in that case it would be okay to ignore scripture which is what the scholars you keep bringing up do. So in a real sense the only way you can be right is to ignore the authority of the Bible.

And let me give you an example:

Mark Achtemeier uses the scripture text, “Then the Lord God said, “It is not God for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for Him.”
Achtemeier then emphasizes the words that ‘it is not good for the man to be alone’-using that as a reason why it is okay for there to be same gender couples. But he ignores the part about a companion ‘suitable for the man’ and the fact that God created a woman to fulfill that role.

That is the only way that you can make a case for same gender sex, by ignoring some scriptures. And that is what all of the scholars you are referencing do, they reject some of the scripture.

Anonymous said...

To Gene in Atlanta,
By the way, the name is Boris. Selah is a Hebrew word found in the Bible; many times in the Book of Psalms. Read God’s Word instead of man’s and you’ll be amazed!
Again, I read your propaganda and again I see no Biblical support. Blah, blah, blah: the Word of the LORD cuts to your heart and the heart is empty. Your assumptions are self evident of a weak confidence in your position and a bankrupt ideology. You, in your perverted manner, took my genuine concern for your spirit and my prayer as some sort of slander. Well, that’s okay. Christ calls me to pray for the lost and I will obey regardless of your attacks. Thank you for calling me “poor.” I’ll take it! “Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:3 “ Now there was found in it a poor wise man, Yet no one remembered that same poor man. Then I said: ‘Wisdom is better than strength. Nevertheless the poor man’s wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.’” Ecclesiastes 9:15-16. “Better is the poor who walks in his integrity than one who is perverse in his lips and is a fool.” Proverbs 19:1. So try again Gene. All your worldly sophistry stands NO chance against the Word of the LORD! To quote a favorite old hymen: “On Christ the solid rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand.”

Boris in North Carolina

Viola Larson said...

Obviously that was supposed to be “it is not good for the man” I can’t believe I even capitalized God, when I meant good.

Noel said...


Of the dozen-or-so teenage suicides I've been connected with over the years, none have been glbt. Adolescence is hard for a thousand reasons, and people get bullied for thousands of reasons. Any attempt to co-opt teen suicide as some kind of glbt merit badge is simply specious. It is your (and others') attempt to secure some kind of moral high ground from which to dispense your judgments in the name of justice.

Some gays are mistreated--a crime which I decry--but so are skinny kids, obese kids, and probably red heads with freckles.

The glbt movement is obviously nothing but a campaign to accrue and and wield power--social power, political power, and personal power. You're winning in the secular sphere. In the social sphere, gay has been the popular cause-du-jour for 20 years or more. Your stock is on the rise, going through the roof. Gay marriage is a political juggernaut, and is rolling through the blue states with ticker-tape parades. The entire Democratic Party platform is dedicated to it now.

I'm just saying, all this talk about victimization and belittlement is clearly passé. You've got the power, so it's time to trade the "unfairly victimized" card for a new one. I would welcome any kind of card that encouraged honest debate without the patent judgmentalism ("homophobia!" etc.).

In such a day, I'll gladly sit down with you for an honest and uncompromising heart-to-heart.

Anonymous said...

sorry Viola, you cant have it both ways.

Dr. Mohler was right.

And so was Achtenmier about GLBT ordination. The same approach he used allows you to be ordained. Never forget that. The vase majority of the world church would (correctly) agree with me here.

No comment from Reformed Catholic when presented with an article that answers his question I see. Expected.

boris, you did not answer my question about if you are PCUSA or not. I am curious.
you sound angry and insulting Boris. Do overlook me, as a layman, I only bothered to learn Greek. You dont address any of my points. Expected. My words have a lot of Biblical support. Even if some people choose to close thier ears to it. Go, read everyone to Achtenmier to Duba yourself. Just dont do it with a predetermined some people.

Noel...if you knew what I know, personally, and from friends, about the rates of attemted and successful suicide among gay youth, and can call it specious....then I see no reason why meeting with you would serve me any possible good. You would have nothing, whatsoever, to offer.

your statement, and the implication that GLBT kids attempt suicide at the same rate as kids who are bullied for other things (I was also bullied for being me, not the same thing) is a terrifying statement coming from someone who is a pastor. It reminds me of when I visited Egypt and was told by a Muslim acquaintance that "there is no harassment of Chritians. when it does happen, oh so so rarely, that is sad and awful. But what about all the Muslims whose rights are abridged by the Christians and their demands? they incite the anger! And what about other people with their demands? Why just focus on the Christians?"

that is EXACTLY how you sound, and the comparison is spot on. not to say people other than Christians dont suffer in Egypt, but we all the realities of that story.

Attitudes like that are why you are losing in each of the spheres you mentioned. And one which you did not. The church.


pastor thalos said...

Gene, where is the gay gene? What happened to all the so-called scientific evidence that people are born that way? There is more evidence that people are born with an inclination toward alcoholism, than there is toward homosexual attractions. It is clear even among scholars that support the homosexual agenda, that the development of such desires has more to do with environmnent. does this even remotely compare scientifically with the biological differences between men and women? There is none. Now how about the Biblical witness? As proponents of the homosexual agenda have repeatedly pointed out...there is no recognition in scripture of someone born with homosexual attractions...only homosex behavior...which is unequivocally condemned as abhorrent, vile and utterly sinful.

While proponents of the homosexual agenda want to somehow equate the issues biblically and scientifically, there simply is no warrant for this nonsense.

Simply because the church has struggled with the question of women leadership in the church and how the passages in scripture deal with the issue, does not mean that we can equate the two. Homosex behavior is utterly and unequivocally condemned in scripture.

The analogy is therefore flawed at the outset. Rather if one wants to discuss close biblical analogies, it would be much better to discuss the analogy between homosexual behavior and that of incest.

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Viola Larson said...

Two things:
If you want me to leave your post up you will have to quit insulting people.

We all know that there are many conservative Christians who believe that women should not be in leadership. But you have over used both the idea and the president of Louisville Southern Baptist Seminary. Let it go.

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Jodie said...
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