The first part listening to Trump speak at the 11th Hour Faith meeting in North Carolina revealed that his biggest religious influence was Norman Vincient Peale, author of The Power of Positive Thinking as well as long time pastor of Marble Collegiate Church. Trump spoke fondly of him, as too many have over the years. Peale was supposedly a Christian, but hardly.
Pastor and author Tim Challies in a series on false teachers points out that Peale did not even believe in a personal God. He writes:
“Yet as a Christian minister he denied that God was a being, saying “Who is God? Some theological being? He is so much greater than theology. God is vitality. God is life. God is energy. As you breathe God in, as you visualize His energy, you will be reenergized!” (Plus: The Magazine of Positive Thinking). As a Christian minister he told Phil Donahue, “It’s not necessary to be born again. You have your way to God, I have mine. I found eternal peace in a Shinto shrine … I’ve been to Shinto shrines and God is everywhere. … Christ is one of the ways! God is everywhere.” He denied the very heart of the Christian faith and replaced it with his doctrine of positive thinking.”
The positive thinking has undoubtedly shaped some of Trump’s thinking. This would explain why Trump does not believe he has to be forgiven, but just sets about making things right if he feels he has erred. And positive thinking may include never realizing that you are a sinner who needs forgiveness. It also might explain why as Kelly, his former Chief of Staff stated to New York Times reporter, Michael S, Schimdt, … “that on multiple occasions Mr. Trump told him that those Americans wounded, captured or killed in action were “losers and suckers.”
In my mind connected to all of this is Trump’s liking for authoritarian or strong man leaders including Hitler. Kelly is quoted in the NYTs article:
“Mr. Kelly confirmed previous reports that on more than one occasion Mr. Trump spoke positively of Hitler."
“He commented more than once that, ‘You know, Hitler did some good things, too,’
Mr. Kelly said Mr. Trump told him.”
This understanding of Peale’s positive thinking and flirting with fascism really fits together. The Fascists of Nazi Germany, those who considered themselves Christians, the German Christians as opposed to the Confessing Church, held to what they referred to as Positive Christianity. It wasn’t exactly the same ideology as Peale’s but somewhat like it. Jesus was considered not a bloody savior but a noble warrior. Repentance was not necessary.
Within this positive ideology—what could really be called a pagan faith—there was a negative—the outsider, the “foreigner.” For Nazi Germany it was the Jew, the Roma, the disabled, the Poles, the LGBT community, the disagreeable Confessing pastors who refused to praise Hitler. Within Trump’s positive ideology there are also some negatives—no not China or Russia but enemies within the United States—those who oppose him. If necessary, he will use the military against them he says. And slightly below the opposition, the Democrats, the press, those who disagree with him. The foreigner, those he has referred to as vermin. Those he believes will contaminate the blood of Americans.
Trump’s Maga people also see some citizens of the United States as enemies—some of them are calling for them to be imprisoned or hung.1.
But where is the Kingdom of God in all of this? Where are the people of Jesus? Sheltered in the arms of the Lord, hearing His word, dwelling in His keeping. Caring for those considered unworthy of Trump’s pleasure. Hopefully building a wall of peace and love against a wall of hate, serving a King whose reign is not of this world but is eternal.
Forever, O Lord, your word is settled in heaven, Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations, You established the earth, and it stands. They stand this day according to Your ordinances, for all things are Your servants. (Psalms 119: 89-91)
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21 comments:
"But where is the Kingdom of God in all of this? Where are the people of Jesus?"
How does one answer those questions as we watch the Harris campaign make abortion one of their most prominent issues? How does one answer those questions in regards to any political campaign? How can the "people of Jesus" so ardently support a candidate that so vehemently supports abortion?
Isn't the problem that too many on both sides put their faith in politics and politicians instead of Jesus?
Craig, yes I think you are right about too many on both sides putting their faith in politics and politicians instead of Jesus. I didn't vote for either and that's one of the choices that citizens have. While I do think that Trump is the scarier of the two, they are both problematic and abortion is one which is now actually on both sides.
In fairness, Harris is not making 'abortion' the prominent issue, but rather "freedom of choice". Not even a licentious choice, but a sensitive one, with strong boundaries set be medical ethics.
Freedom of choice is also a prominent issue is the Gospels. I dare say a foundational precept. Discipleship that his not by choice is not discipleship. Jesus never once promoted imposing his teachings by force. As Disciples of Jesus we never seek to impose our ethical choices on others by force.
The abortion "issue" is, and always was, mostly promoted as a wedge issue to cause division - mostly division in the Church - ; by people who fundamentally didn't care one way or the other which side you chose so long as you chose one, and fought with the other side. And division, fighting, and rancor it did cause.
And THAT is the real issue.
Jodie Gallo
Los Angeles, CA
Jodie I think you are way off the subject and way off on your biblical exegesis. Most of the pro-life people I know and myself care very deeply about the death of unborn babies. Jesus did not abolish the law, he says so in Matthew- and the law forbids killing. Sure, Jesus did not insist that his disciples must force their beliefs on others but that is different then citizens obeying laws that are ethical. I'm fairly certain that if the United States had a law that it was okay to kill certain ethnic groups you would be happy to use force, as well as pass laws against it. But this isn't the same as choosing between two evils. God doesn't insist that one must pick one supposedly lesser evil over another.
Viola, not voting is a choice. In this case not voting is going to either give us a president who facilitated overturning Roe and returning the issue to the states or a president who has promised to start by legislating Roe and to make abortion legal through the entirety pr pregnancy. Even if Trump has softened his views on abortion, it's more likely that we'll keep the status quo under Trump than Harris. Obviously we have two really bad choices, as well as to sit out and have zero influence on pro life policy over the next 4 years.
Given the fact that "choice" is only considered a good thing when applied to abortion, and when watching the content of Harris' ads and speeches, it's hard to come up with a scenario where choice is not a euphemism for abortion. Further, given the documented reasons given for abortion, it's hard to make sense of the use of the tiny percentage of abortions for "medical" reasons to justify the vast majority of abortions for reasons which boil down to convenience.
I also do not see choice as a primary component of Jesus' teaching in the Gospels, let alone the rest of scripture.
Viola I feel you did not read what I wrote very carefully. But I do not want to argue with you here.
I do wish folks would listen carefully to what Harris is saying in her own words; and compare them to what Trump is saying in his own words. The thing is I think they are, at least when it comes to Trump; and when choosing Trump over Harris, those who make that choice will do so knowing exactly what they are choosing.
It saddens me, maybe even angers me, that many will do so saying they are making their choice in the name of the Kingdom of God. If they succeed, what happens next to America will be what they knowingly chose. As when Israel chose to have a king, God will let them have it their way.
Craig, while abortion is a grave issue here so are other life issues. If Trump becomes president aid to Ukraine will be cut off and that country will undoubtedly be totally obliterated as a sovereign state and many, many more will die while Putin will go on to invade other Baltic states with many more deaths. A great loss of freedom may occur with both candidates, but it bothers me that Trump's followers are looking forward to hanging so-called enemies which for them includes those they call Rinos, the press and Democrats. I have read that Mitt Romney is very concerned for his family while others have some of the same concerns. I believe that both candidates will be a disaster and that is no choice at all.
The Ukraine war is a strange thing to hang one's hat on, especially given the corruption of the Ukrainian leadership and the total lack of accountability for the wasted funding. I find it strange that you didn't use Israel as Biden has hung Israel out to dry more than any US president since the '60's. It's not a lack of concern for Ukraine as a concern that the US is borrowing billions of dollars to fund this war while Europe doesn't do much at all.
Personally, as the amount of "right wing" politically motivated violence and threats of violence pale in comparison to the "left wing" violence and threats of violence since 2014, I'm not sure how seriously I'd take those kinds of stories personally.
Again, we have two bad candidates, no question. Yet one is committed to increasing abortion significantly, and that concerns me deeply.
Craig I agree with your concern about abortion, but I don't agree with you about Ukraine. What you are saying about Ukraine reminds me too much of Trump and MAGA's views which I believe are false. Biden could do better on Israel and I'm not sure about Trump on Israel, but thankfully they are doing very well at the moment. I think we will just have to agree to disagree.
Craig, To quote you "I also do not see choice as a primary component of Jesus' teaching in the Gospels, let alone the rest of scripture. "
I find that surprising.
What did God give Adam and Eve in the Garden? What did God say to Abel when Cain set it in his heart to kill him? What did Moses say in his last speech? What was the polemic surrounding establishing a Kingdom in Israel? What did Paul mean when he said "For freedom Christ has set you free?" What is 'Grace'? What does it mean to 'give'? What does it mean to "forgive"? What does it mean for a leader to serve? What does it mean to love your enemies and to pray for those that persecute you? To walk the extra mile, to give your other coat, to turn the other cheek?
Do not all these fundamental principles of the Gospel rest on the assumption of freedom of choice? How does one even sin and fall short, and then have need of forgiveness without it? I am really baffled by your assertion.
I'm sure you are. I see a God revealed in scripture who is beyond our choices, who is sovereign, and who can redeem even our worst choices for His glory and purpose. Further, I don't see the ending of a unique, individual, human life at a particular stage of development as a choice to be celebrated. I see Jesus telling us that the "sheep and goats" that the sheep will be "blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.", not that they made the right choice.
I understand that using Jesus and your theology of choice to justify abortion is very important to you, and that you're unlikely to be persuaded otherwise, so I'll simply state that while I see choices being made in scripture I don't see your theology of choice as justification for abortion.
That concern about abortion does seem significant, especially as a Harris administration is intent on enshrining abortion with virtually zero restrictions throughout pregnancy, while Trump seems satisfied with the ststus quo.
I'm curious what these "MAGA views" that are "false" could be. That there have been billions of borrowed dollars added to the US national debt that are unaccounted for? That those in power in Ukraine have enriched themselves? I find it interesting that you "believe" things to be false, when it seems within the realm of possibility to determine whether or not they are actually false.
If you think that the US withholding replacement equipment from Israel, which they purchase, is sustainable or that simultaneously supporting those who wish Israel's destruction and Israel is good policy, you're welcome to that position. I personally can't support or ignore an administration which done virtually nothing to free the US hostages being held by Hamas for over a year.
I'm not advocating one candidate over the other as much as I'm suggesting that holding both the the same standard is valuable. The last three elections have been difficult because of the terrible quality of the candidates, but that doesn't mean that we as Christians can't point out the fact that Harris is the most pro-abortion candidate since Roe and acknowledge the potential that her abortion policies will be legislated during her term.
Yes, we do disagree.
Craig two things. The first my fault I allowed this conversation to go off the wrong way. The posting is about Trump and fascism. I am concerned when he seeks revenge and believes it is okay to use the military against American citizens.
Second since you stated this: " That there have been billions of borrowed dollars added to the US national debt that are unaccounted for? That those in power in Ukraine have enriched themselves? I find it interesting that you "believe" things to be false, when it seems within the realm of possibility to determine whether or not they are actually false." You need to explain where you are getting such information. And let me add yes, there has been corruption in Ukraine but not from its president who is attempting to move Ukraine in the right direction while an authoritarian, Putin, has illegally invaded Ukraine killing, raping and kidnapping children.
May I suggest books and videos by historian Timothy Snyder. I have book in particular Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLCyk41w9gU
Viola,
I understand that Trump as a facist is a helpful narrative, whether or not it's True is another issue entirely.
Since you seem to agree that the US borrowing billions to fund corruption in Ukraine is reality, I fail to see how Zelensky's hands are completely clean. I get my information from multiple sources, as someone who's undergrad major was in journalism I tend to use what I learned as I evaluate news. Because of that, I tend to ask questions any time I see someone offer a single source for anything.
Mostly, I think I'm dissapointed to see someone who I've respected in the fight over the demise of PCUSA, against abortion, and a stout defender of Israel, willing to settle for increases in legalized abortions and decreasing support for Israel.
Fortunately for you, as I believe you live in CA, your state vote is all but determined and your individual vote will probably make no difference.
Wishing you the best, and I'm done commenting here. I think that I've said everything I wanted to say.
Craig, "Here's my insult, now I am leaving" is not very gracious. Plus you are saying some things that are verifiably not true.
But you also said "I understand that Trump as a fascist is a helpful narrative, whether or not it's True is another issue entirely. "
I grew up in another country run by a Fascist junta and I've recognized Trump is technically a fascist from the day he walked on the political stage. So has everybody else I know who has experienced what that is like. But people seem to think it's just a rhetorical insult, as if it were not possible in America. On the bright side, if you think it's an insult it means you agree Fascism is a really bad thing. But just because it's offensive does not mean it's false. It should mean you would want to know, and that if you could be convinced it is True, you would recognize the existential danger our Nation and our churches are in if he gets elected. The legality or not of abortion will be the least of our troubles. And don't expect him to be pro-Israel if he wins either. His base is very much antisemitic.
By the way, nothing I have said should be construed as trying to justify abortion. Far from it. But using abortion to justify taking away freedom of choice, that's what I am warning you against. Where is the line in the sand that Trump will not cross in taking away people's freedom of choice? That was just a first shot across the bow. He's already announced he will surround himself with military leaders who swear loyalty to him instead of the Constitution, that he supports dictators and enemies of the Free World, and that he plans to deploy them against American civilians for doing or saying whatever he, Trump, considers to be disloyal to him (his only measure for what he considers "right" or "wrong").
That's is the path he says he is on, in his own words. As the story about the little boy who cried wolf ends, one day the wolf really did come.
"Here's my insult, now I am leaving"
How is my pointing out that I have respected Viola for years for her steadfast fight to preserve the PCUSA and her firm commitment to the pro-life position, and her unwavering support for Israel an insult? It's literally the Truth, Viola has fought harder and been more unwavering than many in positions of leadership for years and years. I deeply appreciated her writings on the PCUSA issues, life, and Israel. It's that deep respect, that my current disappointment. This is not in any an insult. Further, Viola was clear that she was finished with this topic, and I was respecting her wishes.
But as long as you make some vague references to some subjective things you believe about Trump, I guess I must believe you regardless. Fortunately, we have a record as POTUS that we can look at and determine that fascism was not on the agenda the first time around, but clearly it is this time.
The problem with your equivocation is that it ignores the clearly stated agenda of the Harris/Walz campaign and that the term "choice" is a synonym for abortion. If "choice" was really the goal, why is adoption not something even mentioned by the Harris/Walz campaign? Why is abortion the only "choice" advocated for? Why is a very minuscule percentage of abortions used to justify the vast majority which are for convenience?
In the absence of anything other than your word for all of your claims, and because Trump's views on various issues are well documented, I fail to see your point.
My point, was and is, that if Viola's questions about Christians do not apply to both sides than they are meaningless. It's not as if we don't have all sorts of christians who'll turn over their pulpit during a worship service to Harris for a nakedly partisan political event or justify unlimited/unrestricted abortion to justify their faith in Harris. To suggest that it's only one side that puts their faith in something other than YHWH is simply false.
Now, out of respect for Viola, I'm done.
To me it feels like a real Isaiah 6 moment.
I have reconsidered my Biblical analogies and I now think that Samuel 8 is more appropriate. In the grand scheme of things, Isaiah 6 comes later.
Jodie, I tried to close this thread several nights ago only to discover my comment did not go on. Anyway i agree with Craig about abortion but I think you already knew that. I love Isaiah 6 because it speaks to the holiness of God and the sinfulness of humanity. And it takes an angel to cleanse Isaiah's mouth and sinfulness so he could do God's bidding. For all it takes the cross, the blood of Christ, so now that we know where we stand in our history let us cling to the cross. I am now closing the thread.
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