Update: A friend sent me this information: "For several years now, all kinds of entities of the PCUSA have published stuff on the same web address that PNS uses. However, PNS has no responsibility for anything that is not clearly published by PNS itself. The article about Zionism Unsettled says it was published by The Israel Palestine Mission Network of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). They are free to do what they want, including opening up the possibility for responses, without PNS doing the same thing for their articles, and they don’t need PNS permission for it."
This changes most of my thoughts on this posting. Everywhere I have placed the Presbyterian News Service I should put the Israel/Palestine Mission Network, except for the article by the PC (U.S.A.) So I am changing it now, including the title.
This is insufferable and awful! The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) really doesn’t want to hear the voices of their own members if they disagree with any supposedly progressive organization in the denomination. On the other hand the Israel/Palestine Mission Network of the PC (U.S.A.) advertised their publication on the news service with an article about Zionism Unsettled. “Presbyteriannetwork opens new dialogue on Zionism” was published on January 21st. They immediately allowed comments about the publication. They listened to any bigot who wanted to write a comment. The last one by George Duke being:
This changes most of my thoughts on this posting. Everywhere I have placed the Presbyterian News Service I should put the Israel/Palestine Mission Network, except for the article by the PC (U.S.A.) So I am changing it now, including the title.
This is insufferable and awful! The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) really doesn’t want to hear the voices of their own members if they disagree with any supposedly progressive organization in the denomination. On the other hand the Israel/Palestine Mission Network of the PC (U.S.A.) advertised their publication on the news service with an article about Zionism Unsettled. “Presbyteriannetwork opens new dialogue on Zionism” was published on January 21st. They immediately allowed comments about the publication. They listened to any bigot who wanted to write a comment. The last one by George Duke being:
The
Jewish supremacists should take this report seriously. It shows that the church
will not shill for their lies any more.
The other news article
about Zionism Unsettled was the PC
(U.S.A.) attempting to take a neutral position. That article, Presbyterian
Church (U.S.A.) remains committed to peace for Israelis and Palestinians” was published February the 13th. The PNS did
not allow comments, not even for several days after I asked the author, Kathy Francis,
the PC (U.S.A.) communications director why none were allowed. Then after
burying the article in their archives they finally published some of the
comments. I say some because one of the now published comments is by
Presbyterian Dr. Martha E. Leatherman who is asking why her comment was not
published and I see no other comment by her.
But back to the other
article, the one which lifts up and highlights Zionism Unsettled. While there are comments by Presbyterians on the
first article, “Presbyteriannetwork opens new dialogue on Zionism,” there are also well known, and
unknown bigots with comments such as the one above.
One of the ant-Semites is
Tom Usher. He wrote and IPMN published it:
Zionism
is anti-Christ. Ask the Jewish-Zionists. They aren't interested in God's and
Jesus's message of loving their neighbors. They stomp on their neighbors trying
to get them to submit under Jewish supremacy. They steal their land by force of
arms. Have you heard the racism and ethnic bigotry coming out of Jewish-Zionist
leaders? It's wicked. How can the Church not stand opposed to twisted, worldly
Zionism? Peace, love, and truth, Tom Usher
Usher writes on a blog, Real
Liberal Christian Church. One article he connects to on his blog is from
Veterans Today and it is the idea that Israel was the instigators of 9-11. It
is an interview by Gordon Duff, chairman of Veterans Today.
Another commenter is Tyron
Parsons. He writes and IPMN allowed:
This
is good news. Finally a traditional Christian org in America stands up to the
uber hypocritical "Jewish" Zionist power structure. Its about time.
Fact is, Jewish Zionism is based in Judaism/Talmudism as an all encompassing
outward expression of other Jewish controlled movements such as
Marxism-Communism. Its end goal is a world Gov seated by the main Anti Christ.
Zionism is Judaism and it is the so called "Jews" common law where as
true Israelites (European/white/Christians) common law is Christian/Natural
law. Both of these
common laws show the difference between the DNA/spirit of Esau "Jews"
and European/whites-Christians (Jacob-Israel/Judah). The so called Jews,
"Israelis" bid for World Gov will happen but it is destined to be
replaced by God's people (Authentic Christians) when the true lord returns, exposing
the false and planting HIS kingdom on their apostasy. (By the way- don't even
try and calling me "anti semitic". I will post "Jewish"
admissions to all I have said above, all day long". 95% of the so called
"Jews" don't have natural links to the tribes of Israel. They are
impostors (Rev 2 and 3) coming from Maternal links to Esau and Ashkenaz who are
from Japeth, not Shem (Genesis 10:3).
Another commenter, Charles
Carlson, who sells historical revisionists (denying the Holocaust) books
states:
Bravo PCUSA: I cannot wait to get my copy of
Zionism Unsettled. Based on all reviews, including desperately distorted ones
from some who share in the guilt. This is a vital need fulfilled. And PCUSA
will not be the last. For too long Christian Zionist in American evangelical
churches, including, Richard L. Land of the Southern Baptist convention, have
blame the victim for every act of brutality against them, and getting away with
it. But the movement to discover and expose what Occupation is, is rooted and
growing in the traditional churches like the PCUSA, who know abut [sic]missions.
Scripture is on their side. "Blessed are the Peacemakers." Restated:
Who would Jesus Bomb, or imprison for sixty years? From one who has seen Gaza
from the inside, Charles E Carlson
I have written about
Charles Carlson here: Who
is Charles E. Carlson & why does he picket churches?.
This is a true picture of what
happens when one opens the door to darkness, all the minions of hell will
waddle in through the door. It also a picture of what happens when you ignore
the voices of your own denomination. It may be that the Israel/Palestine
Mission Network speaks to the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) but so do all of the
other members and their voices have real meaning. I believe an apology needs to
come from the
Office of the General Assembly and from the Israel/Palestine Mission Network. And while we are in the business of apologies
the Jewish people need an apology for all of the trash allowed in the comments.
And I should apologize to the Presbyterian News Service because I thought they were involved in the problem.
And I should apologize to the Presbyterian News Service because I thought they were involved in the problem.
23 comments:
Viola,
It is truly bizarre that the PNS would publish blatantly anti-Semitic comments. Would they have published comments attacking any other group of people? They can exercise editorial judgment about which comments to publicize and they have shown how flawed or even malicious their judgment is.
John Erthein
DeFuniak Springs, FL
BTW I left an expanded version of the above comment on their report:
Why would the Presbyterian News Service publish and therefore propagate several blatantly Jew-hating comments (I am referring to the comments by Duke, Lindbergh, Usher, Carlson, Parsons, "Tyrone H," and Bowling)? Would you have published such attacks on any other group of people? You *can* exercise editorial judgment about which comments to publicize, but you have shown how flawed or even malicious your judgment is.
Thanks John. I hope a lot of people respond to this, it is so outrageous.
I have a few clues that Bowling is another known anti-Semite but I couldn't make the complete link. He certainly is on what he says in the comment section.
John,
It is not a mystery why they would publish such tripe. They agree with it. The PCUSA is in fact and in deed an anti-semitic organization. Like "progressives" everywhere they need to find scapegoats for their own failings and the Jews are always handy.
Greg Scandlen
Wayneboro, PA
Viola - fyi, it looks like all those comments have now been removed. Glad you captured them.
Anonymous,
No the anti-Semitic comments are still there ... but not the one I wrote objecting to them.
John Erthein
DeFuniak Springs, FL
I have raised this very issue on my Facebook page and the PC(USA)'s Facebook page.
John Erthein
DeFuniak Springs, FL
I have also covered this at Stand Firm and The Reformed Pastor. Good work, Viola!
David Fischler
Woodbridge, VA
Just put this comment on the article:
I understand the comments on this article (and site) are moderated. So, it's OK with PNS for raving bigots to rant about "Jewish supremacism," "blind support of the Jews," "Zionism is anti-Christ," and spew naked racism like that of Tom Usher? What other forms of hate are allowed on PNS comment threads?
I'll let you know if it ever appears.
David Fischler
Woodbridge, VA
Thanks David, I don't think they put up comments on the weekend, but I am not sure.
Viola,
I updated my own comments accordingly.
Bless you,
John Erthein
DFS, FL
Viola,
I updated my own comments accordingly.
Bless you,
John Erthein
DFS, FL
"John,
It is not a mystery why they would publish such tripe. They agree with it. The PCUSA is in fact and in deed an anti-semitic organization. Like "progressives" everywhere they need to find scapegoats for their own failings and the Jews are always handy.
Greg Scandlen
Wayneboro, PA"
Occasionally I scroll down and read the comments on your site, Viola, and I almost always regret it. Greg here really lets the wind out of the sails of your argument that hateful comments are not justified. It appears that hateful comments toward Zionism are not justified. Hateful comments toward a whole denomination and all progressives? Perfectly appropriate.
But like progressives everywhere, I am of course an anti-Semite just looking to blame someone for my failings.
Thanks, Greg, for pointing that out, so we can all understand how bad it is to generalize about people in a hateful or contemptuous way.
Come on Doug. Yes its a bit over the top, but so it calling conservatives "Homophobic, bigots, and so on".
Is it justified, not really. Not the entire denomination agrees with what is being posted by IPMN, however, you really don't see anyone in the top leadership coming out and saying "that is just too much, and the report should not be released".
Is that an argument from 'silence', yeah it is, but it is the same type of argument one gets when someone on the left argues that Jesus did not say anything about X, Y or Z.
Well, Doug after changing my post you can see that most of the problem can once again be dumped in the hands of the IPMN. But I do believe as Reformed Catholic puts it that the PCUSA is making a statement from silence. And I would think you might have some comment about the awful comments the IPMN allowed on the PCUSA news site. Surely that must bother you.
The PC(USA) - as a whole organization - has declined to effectively reel in the IPMN. Several GAs have called for a fairer presentation, but these were vague and carried no weight. The GA created the IPMN and gave it is mandate. The Presbyterian News Service and the PC(USA) give web-space to the IPMN and allows them to moderate their own comments on that site. It seems far-fetched to pretend that this does not reflect Presbyterian policy. It seems far fetched to suggest the PC(USA) as a whole, the Presbyterian News Service, Presbyterian Mission Agency, the Office of the General Assembly, the Moderator, the Stated Clerk, the Executive director would not intervene were hate speech of the type in the comments to the January 21 article - were they directed to any other group - ethnic, religious, or national.
I am waiting until next week when offices are open and then I am hoping to find more answers to some of the questions raised here. But I think you are right. However, it seems that PNS has no say over what other PCUSA organizations that write on their site allow in comments. But it does seem that the OGA should have some words. So-when are you going to start writing?
Thanks for the heads up on the correction, Viola. I would argue that while PNS is not directly responsible for the comments appearing, they are nevertheless indirectly responsible by virtue of allowing IPMN to use their space. But then, that's yet another piece of evidence that IPMN is in fact an agent of sorts of the PCUSA.
David Fischler
Woodbridge, VA
David, that is one of the questions I want to ask. Who gives permission to use the site? Is it simply a blanket permission for any PCUSA organization. And truly, who posted the PCUSA article and controlled it until it was hidden away?
And here is another are there any rules on what gets posted and what kinds of comments are allowed?
As far as I know anti-Semites are dependent on inaccurate, partial and dishonest quotes of the Talmud whose sole purpose is to accuse the Jews in false accusations. In historical test Jews did not persecute other peoples, when actually other peoples, Christian and even Muslim, persecuted the Jews for various reasons. So Tyron Parsons claims are false and I'm sure that in any free debate against any Self-awareness Jew his whole false theory will break down as a house of cards that collapses at easy wind.
All serious DNA studies since the beginning of the 90s have repeatedly proven compatibility of DNA of all Jews congregations in Europe, in North Africa and the Middle East, including the Land of Israel aka Palestine. These tests only confirm the known and documented written Jewish history of over 3600 years.
On the other hand, Anti-Semites fail to acknowledge that Judaism is not a race but people-hood combined with faith. Christians who are not Christians-by-blood attacking Jews for not being Jews-by-blood. Full hypocrisy. The fact is that Jews are descendants of ancient biblical people of Israel, the ancients Hebrew tribes. But many gentiles were converted to Judaism mainly at the Judges period and the beginning of the first temple house era. A Jew is one who was born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism according to the Jewish laws. That makes the anti-Semites race claim to be ridiculous and stupid. King David grand grandmother was Ruth the Moabite. Second house King Herod’s father was Edomite who has converted to Judaism. Few of the Talmudic Rabbis were gentiles who had converted to Judaism. I think that anti-Semites first have to study themselves.
Abe Bird, Brussles
Abe, I agree with most of what you have said. Thank you for the comment.
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