tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post8784266601827413948..comments2024-03-12T08:04:47.314-07:00Comments on Naming His Grace: Sacramento's Presbytery meeting and "Dialogue vs. debate"Viola Larsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-84525400911872297642009-02-23T17:55:00.000-08:002009-02-23T17:55:00.000-08:00Thank you Kevin,I consider that quite a complement...Thank you Kevin,<BR/>I consider that quite a complement.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-38703822819458791922009-02-23T14:51:00.000-08:002009-02-23T14:51:00.000-08:00I'm thinking you weren't referring to the lion, un...I'm thinking you weren't referring to the lion, unicorn post? ;-)<BR/><BR/>It was very artistic. Very Mya Angelou. Only better. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02670804686736764846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-70723520450726345492009-02-22T12:26:00.000-08:002009-02-22T12:26:00.000-08:00Debbie,If you read this I deleted John's last comm...Debbie,<BR/>If you read this I deleted John's last comment to you the more I thought about it, and for some reason it kept popping into my head at Presbytery, the more I thought how ugly it was. I am sorry I left it there at all.<BR/><BR/>Viola Larson<BR/>Sacramento, CaViola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-89318429888358073022009-02-21T15:57:00.000-08:002009-02-21T15:57:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-64629787390916876862009-02-19T13:51:00.000-08:002009-02-19T13:51:00.000-08:00To clear Alan's confusion up, Shuck wanted example...To clear Alan's confusion up, Shuck wanted examples of comments, not of blogs. Alan could have given an example of the type of comment that was deleted, even though the comment itself had been deleted.<BR/><BR/>Debbie Berkley<BR/>Bellevue, WADebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01755638934636386391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-67226314708742329612009-02-19T13:49:00.000-08:002009-02-19T13:49:00.000-08:00If this is what "dialogue" is like, then give me a...If this is what "dialogue" is like, then give me a good debate any day.<BR/><BR/>Adel Thalos<BR/>Snellville, GAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-64237255192467162342009-02-19T13:21:00.000-08:002009-02-19T13:21:00.000-08:00ViolaI think in textual criticism it's called ditt...Viola<BR/><BR/>I think in textual criticism it's called dittography. ;)<BR/><BR/>Bob Campbell<BR/>Sharon Hill, PAPastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07787179002120424157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-89600418184274555692009-02-19T13:14:00.000-08:002009-02-19T13:14:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-38340897817611438922009-02-19T13:00:00.000-08:002009-02-19T13:00:00.000-08:00Well I guess two is better than one! I don't know ...Well I guess two is better than one! I don't know how that happened.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-74344580336281786462009-02-19T12:59:00.001-08:002009-02-19T12:59:00.001-08:00Interesting Alan,In a comment to Debbie you write,...Interesting Alan,<BR/><BR/>In a comment to Debbie you write,<BR/>"And, another inaccuracy in your comments is that actually I did give an example of blogs that delete comments, Debbie: this blog. Notice that, rather than naming names of other blogs and bloggers and gossiping about other people behind their backs, as you did, I gave the specific example of the comments that get deleted right here on this blog, by Viola."<BR/><BR/>But earlier you wrote to me:<BR/><BR/>"Sorry, I was referring to the "Consistory" and other "conservative" PCUSA blogs, not just your blog."<BR/><BR/>Do not comment here again at all on any posting of mine. You are only attempting to side track any posting about homosexuality.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-46491663225584640012009-02-19T12:59:00.000-08:002009-02-19T12:59:00.000-08:00Interesting Alan,In a comment to Debbie you write,...Interesting Alan,<BR/><BR/>In a comment to Debbie you write,<BR/>"And, another inaccuracy in your comments is that actually I did give an example of blogs that delete comments, Debbie: this blog. Notice that, rather than naming names of other blogs and bloggers and gossiping about other people behind their backs, as you did, I gave the specific example of the comments that get deleted right here on this blog, by Viola."<BR/><BR/>But earlier you wrote to me:<BR/><BR/>"Sorry, I was referring to the "Consistory" and other "conservative" PCUSA blogs, not just your blog."<BR/><BR/>Do not comment here again at all on any posting of mine. You are only attempting to side track any posting about homosexuality.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-36849336718523008692009-02-19T12:41:00.000-08:002009-02-19T12:41:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-38650731692065792902009-02-19T12:36:00.000-08:002009-02-19T12:36:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-91603339761739149132009-02-19T12:35:00.000-08:002009-02-19T12:35:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-63984982485272720112009-02-19T12:23:00.000-08:002009-02-19T12:23:00.000-08:00Alan said that deleting of comments only happened ...Alan said that deleting of comments only happened on conservative blogs. He gave no examples. I wonder why John Shuck doesn't accuse him of sliming those blogs? But that's what Mr. Shuck accused me of doing to him, because, in response to Alan's accusations against conservative blogs, I mentioned his blog as one of my examples of liberal blogs that target conservative comments, and I didn't give examples any more than Alan did.<BR/><BR/>Mr. Shuck himself, however, in an earlier comment, agreed that conservatives are ridiculed at his blog. Now he accuses me of sliming him for saying so. What's up with that? It's true, and Mr. Shuck can say it, but I can't?<BR/><BR/>Sliming. Now is that a dialogue-level word? But then I suppose Mr. Shuck has not said that he's interested in dialogue so I shouldn't expect it from him.<BR/><BR/>Debbie Berkley<BR/>Bellevue, WADebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01755638934636386391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-47567180012931957092009-02-19T11:10:00.000-08:002009-02-19T11:10:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-28611153543192221502009-02-19T10:58:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:58:00.000-08:00Alan,I’m trying to dialogue with you, but every ti...Alan,<BR/><BR/>I’m trying to dialogue with you, but every time I share my experience of you, you respond in classic debate mode and go on the attack.<BR/><BR/>I’d like to invite you to respond to me in dialogue mode: Don’t be defensive and don’t give a defense. Remember that my characterization of you as someone who mischaracterizes the positions of others and who describes the motivations of others uncharitably is just my experience. I’m just sharing my thoughts and feelings, which is what dialogue is all about, right? Just listen. Let me know that you’ve heard me by your contemplative silence. Or your agreement would be fine, too.<BR/><BR/>I know that it will be hard not to respond in debate mode, but please resist challenging the factual accuracy of what I write (for the sake of and in the spirit of dialogue). Please also resist dismissive responses that do not further dialogue. <BR/><BR/>I suspect that the cynical among us will be inclined to interpret the above as a manipulation whereby I define dialogue in such a way that it allows me to say whatever I want while constraining your response. (People like Viola, Debbie and Jim are always seeing manipulation of the process where none exists, aren’t they?) I’m confident that in your case, however, they you won’t dismiss the above as a manipulation because then you’d essentially be agreeing with Viola’s original post. That would be… what’s that word you like to use? Ironic.<BR/><BR/>Bruce Byrne<BR/>Concord, CaWayne Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18411321715019579970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-59113017316232998152009-02-19T10:41:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:41:00.000-08:00Cameron,It is the issue of turning dialogue and de...Cameron,<BR/>It is the issue of turning dialogue and debate into something they are not. I am almost sure that informing people that they must suspend their beliefs in the process of either debate or dialogue is not in Roberts Rules.<BR/><BR/>Viola Larson<BR/>Sacramento, CaViola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-87519370169817309972009-02-19T10:28:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:28:00.000-08:00Brian,Jesus befriended the sinner that is true--no...Brian,<BR/>Jesus befriended the sinner that is true--none of us would even be here if he did not. But he also called the sinner away from their sin. He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. He praised Nicodemus because he gave back the money he had over charged the people. Jesus’ call to discipleship is a radical call to death of self and that includes our sexuality.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-77653639979512629312009-02-19T10:20:00.001-08:002009-02-19T10:20:00.001-08:00My point is that if Jesus followed the purity code...My point is that if Jesus followed the purity codes of his day, he wouldn't have broken bread with Roman collaborators (traitors), healed the sick on the Sabbath, or conversed with unmarried women.<BR/><BR/>He calls us to believe, certainly, but is the point of Jesus' ministry merely to believe *in* him, or also to believe *what* he believed?Brian Spolarichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15763960114999836359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-44037900939981618142009-02-19T10:20:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:20:00.000-08:00Paola, KSSorry.Paola, KS<BR/><BR/>Sorry.Cameron Motthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10902626079252606370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-13927819958566740332009-02-19T10:19:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:19:00.000-08:00Is it not a requirement for the presbytery to cond...Is it not a requirement for the presbytery to conduct meetings according to Robert's Rules of Order? Robert's Rules of Order allows dialogue during debate. I'm not seeing the issue.Cameron Motthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10902626079252606370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-47132006319925982072009-02-19T10:18:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:18:00.000-08:00Kevin, thanks for being there faithfully as a Chri...Kevin, thanks for being there faithfully as a Christian brother. Sure we don't agree on some things but I do not see you attempting to reroute the conversation or hurt other people. I did report John Shuck but it was not about his awful positions on the Christian faith--well except using violent words and allowing violent words towards others is about the Christ faith. Anyway that is what I reported.<BR/><BR/>In fairness he did finally say some good words about Rick Warren and just recently I noted that he corrected a person about his anti-Semitism which is good. But you are right about the other things and it is a sign of where some in our denomination are at that there is no discipline for any but those attempting to leave with their property. <BR/><BR/>Debbie, I thought of deleting John for your sake but sometimes I leave people’s comments up because I think it is helpful for others to see where they are coming from.<BR/><BR/>Brian,<BR/>I believe you just proved the point of why the progressives are pushing some form of discernment or your brand of dialogue, temporary disbanding of beliefs, etc. But those in the orthodox, reformed, evangelical position need to understand that we are classifying a whole group of people unfit for the gospel if we vote yes on 08-B. To use church law to place people involved in sexual sin in a category of those who cannot be transformed is awful. <BR/><BR/>Viola Larson<BR/>Sacramento, CaViola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-25524670533644022912009-02-19T10:06:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:06:00.000-08:00Brian wrote:"...we believe in a God who is profoun...Brian wrote:<BR/><BR/>"...we believe in a God who is profoundly relational"<BR/><BR/>True, but he is also holy. If anything, the Bible describes this as his primary characteristic.<BR/><BR/>He continued:<BR/><BR/>"and follow a Christ who based his beliefs on his relationships, not the other way around."<BR/><BR/>I have no idea what this means. The only way it could possibly be accurate statement would be to say that Jesus based his earthly ministry on his relationship (singular) with the Father. Even then, the Bible nowhere depicts Jesus as espousing beliefs. He calls *us* to believe.<BR/><BR/>Just my $.02.<BR/><BR/>Kevin Carroll<BR/>Macon, MSAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02670804686736764846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-60186716946036085472009-02-19T08:27:00.000-08:002009-02-19T08:27:00.000-08:00Someone asked earlier "what could have changed the...Someone asked earlier "what could have changed their minds but debate"?<BR/><BR/>I have read reports and have had conversations with folks who were present at the meetings of the increasing number of "flipping" presbyteries. Based on that, I would say a likely explanation for the change is relationships. The dialogues have built understanding and helped "move the middle". People knowing and loving someone who is L, G, B, or even T has changed the dynamic dramatically.<BR/><BR/>This doesn't surprise me: we believe in a God who is profoundly relational, and follow a Christ who based his beliefs on his relationships, not the other way around. Its the hard work of one on one connections, not ecclesiastical and theological debate, that is making the difference.<BR/><BR/>Peace to you all.<BR/><BR/>Brian Spolarich, also of Chelsea, MI.Brian Spolarichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15763960114999836359noreply@blogger.com