tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post5742165160889329933..comments2024-03-12T08:04:47.314-07:00Comments on Naming His Grace: Read Jude ....Viola Larsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-85223511403715356862009-12-01T18:26:26.881-08:002009-12-01T18:26:26.881-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-52116606103455280652009-12-01T09:31:28.505-08:002009-12-01T09:31:28.505-08:00John,
You are mistaken and do not understand. I ne...John,<br />You are mistaken and do not understand. I never reported John to his Presbytery because of doctrines but because he put up a post about Rick Warren that was hateful and then allowed a commenter to suggest using violence. And this was a commenter who had done this before; I would report him again if he did that.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-37312467417811263212009-12-01T08:26:13.975-08:002009-12-01T08:26:13.975-08:00Viola wrote: "I once again hope that Shuck’s ...Viola wrote: "I once again hope that Shuck’s Presbytery takes note. And yes I did commend Kelley but my comment was of course deleted."<br /><br />+++<br /><br />So, John deletes your comments because you question his orthodoxy so much that you report him to his Presbytery.<br /><br />I think John is absolutely correct to delete your comments until you stop trying to get him removed from his livelihood and you are absolutely wrong to report him to his Presbytery.<br /><br />John is one of the most faithful, loving, compassionate pastors I have ever known and you can feel the love from so many of his flocks past and present. Too bad you don't know him like I know him.<br /><br />Please change your mind, Viola, and stop trying to banish people from the PC(USA) because you disagree with them. We are a big tent. We need to find ways to develop far more mutal respect, understanding, forgiveness and reconciliation. We can disagree without being disagreeable and definitely without trying to get someone fired or reprimanded for remarks on the internet which don't meet with someone's approval.<br /><br />+ Love + John A Wilde + Whitesboro NY + <i><a href="http://johnawilde.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">The John A Wilde Blog</a> + “Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.” – Mohandas Gandhi</i>Abundancetrekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02172605993275056084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-74022184268892210982009-11-30T08:26:00.743-08:002009-11-30T08:26:00.743-08:00I urge everyone to work on mutual respect and reco...I urge everyone to work on mutual respect and reconciliation. I know there are huge disagreements about theology and politics within the big tent of the USA and the Presbyterian Church (USA). We can disagree without being disagreeable and we should all work at that very hard.<br /><br />There is nothing wrong with being passionate about your beliefs and values but we can learn how to passionately respect even those whose beliefs and values are quite different. <br /><br />The <i>ad hominem</i> statements which so many are making on all sides is not what the nation and the church we love so much needs. <br /><br />The harsh judging we are all doing -- including me for sure --is sinful. <br /><br />Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.<br /><br />love,<br />John A Wilde + <i><a href="http://johnawilde.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">The John A Wilde Blog</a> + “Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.” – Mohandas Gandhi</i>Abundancetrekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02172605993275056084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-64474521990613970342009-11-30T07:34:12.505-08:002009-11-30T07:34:12.505-08:00It is sad to see you decide to judge the author an...It is sad to see you decide to judge the author and many of the readers of Shuck and Jive so harshly. We need to work at mutual respect and reconciliation. <br /><br />By the way, I have let John know that I find his rhetoric offensive at times. We all need to work on humility ... and forgiving ... and not judging ... something I find over and over and over again in scripture.<br /><br />love,<br />John A. Wilde<br />Whitesboro NY<br /><i><a href="http://johnawilde.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">The John A Wilde Blog</a> + “Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.” – Mohandas Gandhi</i>Abundancetrekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02172605993275056084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-86364241169768341962009-11-30T06:42:22.952-08:002009-11-30T06:42:22.952-08:00Debbie,
You made up this whole "monster"...Debbie,<br /><br />You made up this whole "monster" thing. I guess that happens when you don't have an argument. My point has been very specific and clear. Carmen's rhetoric was over the top and insensitive. I wasn't the only one to see this. You can read the comments of others on her blog including the one from Gene who I have now quoted twice. <br /><br />John Shuck<br />Elizabethton, TennesseeJohn Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-3110598057876653042009-11-26T07:10:23.007-08:002009-11-26T07:10:23.007-08:00Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
I am grateful for y...Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!<br /><br />I am grateful for you all as you help make life interesting!<br /><br />Love,<br />John Shuck<br />Elizabethton, TNJohn Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-72144463172646192332009-11-25T14:45:14.022-08:002009-11-25T14:45:14.022-08:00Viola
Re: Kelley
OOPS! Sorry about that. And a...Viola<br /><br />Re: Kelley<br /><br />OOPS! Sorry about that. And about talking about Mark and Carmen.<br /><br />Bob Campbell<br />Sharon Hill, PAPastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07787179002120424157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-89206767460493461632009-11-25T14:42:54.386-08:002009-11-25T14:42:54.386-08:00Thanks Debbie,
That probably needed to be said, bu...Thanks Debbie,<br />That probably needed to be said, but I think everyone needs to get the turkey ready now.<br /><br />Hopefully a happy Thanksgiving to everyoneViola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-22652728693181479862009-11-25T14:38:34.613-08:002009-11-25T14:38:34.613-08:00OK, that's fine, Viola. This is not really ab...OK, that's fine, Viola. This is not really about Carmen, however, but something related that I was thinking about.<br /><br />John, you said that you don't think that theological conservatives are monsters, but then you continue to insist that Carmen or other theological conservatives want someone dead or have incited someone to kill someone. Only a monster would want to kill someone, or incite people to kill someone. You have belied your words.<br /><br />And I'm fine with quitting the discussion now.<br /><br />Debbie Berkley<br />Bellevue, WADebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01755638934636386391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-81848460735051830412009-11-25T14:37:09.221-08:002009-11-25T14:37:09.221-08:00And just one more thing, the pastor at that site i...And just one more thing, the pastor at that site is a very kind African American Pastor. I am sure she got it off of my site because I have been linked to it for a long time. And I did check Kelley's link before writing. She did not even have that link to Pure church before. So praise God she came over to my site and saw that many of you did care.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-2593613582664843742009-11-25T14:28:21.715-08:002009-11-25T14:28:21.715-08:00Okay Bob,
One more very important thing. Pure Blog...Okay Bob,<br />One more very important thing. Pure Blog that you clicked on is a blog that Kelley follows. In fact I have that link on my site because he is a pastor of great integrity and just the kind of pastor everybody needs. I am glad Kelley has found his site. Hopefully she found it here.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-46070595490143900532009-11-25T14:22:45.574-08:002009-11-25T14:22:45.574-08:00I am breaking in here despite trying to get a few ...I am breaking in here despite trying to get a few things cleaned for Thanksgiving. And probably no one is going to appreciate what I am going to say not even my good friends Debbie and Bob.<br /><br />I chose purposely not to engage John S. in this conversation for a very particular reason. You know how kids get caught doing something they are not suppose to do and so they start finding something else bad that someone else did. You know I’m sorry but what about them-let’s talk about them instead!<br /><br />Well, as far as I can see John has accomplished what he set out to do-turn the conversation around so that no one is talking about what I posted only about that bad Carmen-who “oh my” goes around calling people bigots, and fundamentalist elites, and words that I would rather not use on this blog. Or was that somebody else.<br /><br />So please take this conversation about Carmen somewhere else because John is not going to get to do that on my blog.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-39674181987201361212009-11-25T14:21:33.186-08:002009-11-25T14:21:33.186-08:00I clicked on Kelley. Turns out that HE is a Bapti...I clicked on Kelley. Turns out that HE is a Baptist pastor in the Caymans. Always better to check than to guess.<br /><br />Bob Campbell<br />SH, PA<br /><br />Oh and John, thanks a lot. Now that you have said something nice about me you have ruined my reputation! :)Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07787179002120424157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-22694072206691217032009-11-25T14:10:20.981-08:002009-11-25T14:10:20.981-08:00I thought your letter was good, Bob.
JS
E-tonI thought your letter was good, Bob. <br /><br />JS<br />E-tonJohn Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-63809851915000219892009-11-25T14:03:22.093-08:002009-11-25T14:03:22.093-08:00And I wrote what I had to say, not so much about t...And I wrote what I had to say, not so much about the millstone post as about the general tenor or comments about Mark in a letter to the Layman. You can see it there today.<br /><br />Bob Campbell<br />Same Bat time, Same Bat channelPastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07787179002120424157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-71248340104939291082009-11-25T13:30:12.174-08:002009-11-25T13:30:12.174-08:00Debbie,
In case you missed the link to her blog.
...Debbie,<br /><br />In case you missed the link to <a href="http://www.layman.org/carmensblog/09-11-12/Time_for_a_millstone.aspx" rel="nofollow">her blog.</a><br /><br />Here is a comment that I posted earlier from Gene:<br /><br />"Respectully Rev. Fowler, your point was made in such a manner that it could be easily interpreted in the manner that many here have. Like other posters here, I also am disturbed at what an unbalanced person might think of it. I have always respected The Layman and the Lay Committee, even when I strongly disagreed with them, and find reading it useful and edifying. This was the first time I have read something on The Layman site written by a person in a position of authority in which the tone and manner of writing made me truly uncomfortable."<br /><br />Can't vouch for his orthodoxy. <br /><br />Carmen was over the top. Even a person who finds the Layman "edifying" gets it. <br /><br />Six different people noticed it including Gene above. Those are just the people who commented on her blog. <br /> <br />John Shuck<br />Elizabethton, TNJohn Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-89822208599653714262009-11-25T12:58:58.911-08:002009-11-25T12:58:58.911-08:00By the way, Viola - you made a comment earlier sta...By the way, Viola - you made a comment earlier stating you hoped Holston Presbytery was paying attention. I have news for you: they have decided there are better things to do than to hang on every word John, you, or anyone else on these blogs writes.<br /><br />Tra la!Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-13345831219014231322009-11-25T12:29:15.352-08:002009-11-25T12:29:15.352-08:00Jodie, please, no sexist comments such as "Yo...Jodie, please, no sexist comments such as "You ladies".<br /><br />Debbie Berkley<br />Bellevue, WADebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01755638934636386391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-19125055506777937922009-11-25T12:28:17.872-08:002009-11-25T12:28:17.872-08:00John, please read more carefully. I didn't sa...John, please read more carefully. I didn't say that Carmen Fowler's entire blog meant "Is it the time now that Mark Achtemeier is in the position where he may be leading people astray?" I said that that was how I interpreted the <i>title</i> of the blog.<br /><br />I haven't read the comments on her blog. I'm curious who understands it as an incitement to violence. I'll have to take a look. I wonder if any of them were orthodox believers. I would venture to guess that no orthodox believer would understand it as an incitement to violence. So if you're worried that she's giving marching orders to orthodox believers, you can relax on that concern.<br /><br />The point of Jesus's words about the millstone was that when a person dies and comes before God, if he has led people astray, he is going to be thinking, "I wish I had been thrown into the ocean with a millstone around my neck instead of facing what I'm facing now." Carmen Fowler is saying that Mark Achtemeier may have gotten to the time where, if he were to die at this moment, he would be in that position. She is not suggesting that anyone cause him to die.<br /><br />My husband in fact talked with her about it before she wrote it, and I know that she did not want anyone to kill him. As for removing him from the seminary, I don't know her thoughts on that. I didn't get that impression from reading that blog posting, however. But even if she did want that, what would be wrong with her wanting that? People are always calling for the removal of other people from various offices.<br /><br />Now, about something you said earlier, about someone having called you evil. For those of us who believe in the living Christ, who have put our faith in him and who know him, when we read your writings where you say you don't believe he is alive, where you advocate that he is dead, where you say disrepectful things about his corpse, that to us is an evil thing to do. But because we actually are tolerant, as opposed to the current definition of "tolerant", we affirm your right to say what you say. You are a human being with freedom of expression. We would not try to stop you from expressing your beliefs as a person and as an American citizen. (As a Presbyterian minister, that is another question, since you are breaking your ordination vows. But we are not going to try to stop you from expressing yourself as a person.)<br /><br />Debbie Berkley<br />Bellevue, WADebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01755638934636386391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-45699079212013676892009-11-25T10:09:51.237-08:002009-11-25T10:09:51.237-08:00You ladies really can't see yourselves, can yo...You ladies really can't see yourselves, can you?Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-60116684200556193862009-11-25T07:53:20.152-08:002009-11-25T07:53:20.152-08:00Dave,
I agree!Dave,<br />I agree!Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-54627567764251298572009-11-25T06:30:23.401-08:002009-11-25T06:30:23.401-08:00Debbie,
I did read the article. Several times. I...Debbie,<br /><br />I did read the article. Several times. I wasn't the only one who saw this as inappropriate. Six different people called her on it at her blog.<br /><br />Even a gentleman identified as Gene wrote:<br /><br />"Respectully Rev. Fowler, your point was made in such a manner that it could be easily interpreted in the manner that many here have. Like other posters here, I also am disturbed at what an unbalanced person might think of it. I have always respected The Layman and the Lay Committee, even when I strongly disagreed with them, and find reading it useful and edifying. This was the first time I have read something on The Layman site written by a person in a position of authority in which the tone and manner of writing made me truly uncomfortable."<br /><br />Several people asked for clarification. She said nothing, except: <br /><br />"Many of you have simply missed the point." <br /><br />OK, so what is the point?<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />"I do not think it would be better if Mark Achtemeier were dead. I would be surprised if Carmen Fowler thought so, either."<br /><br />I am glad to hear that about you.<br /><br />So far, we don't know about Carmen, do we? She was asked to clarify and so far has not. <br /><br />You said her blog post means:<br /><br />"Is it the time now that Mark Achtemeier is in the position where he may be leading people astray?"<br /><br />That isn't what she wrote at all. She calls him out as a false teacher, (not "may be leading people astray").<br /><br />Carmen was most definite that Achtemeier is now a false teacher:<br /><br />"He has publically exchanged the truth about God for lies. He has publically renounced the truth of the Word of the Lord by subordinating that Word to his own sincerely held and heartfelt desires."<br /><br />She even knew the rhetoric was harsh:<br /><br />"Jesus has something to say about false teachers: “Jesus said to His disciples: ‘Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin’” (Luke 17:1-2). Harsh words? Yes, but they are not my own."<br /><br />"Is it time for a millstone?" is easily seen by many, not just me, that it is time for action against this false teacher, Achtemeier.<br /><br />Like you, I was trying to read her post through rose colored glasses as well, as in she can't possibly have written that, but she did. <br /><br />She won't own up to the fact (and so far neither will you) that her rhetoric was over the top even in the slightest. <br /><br />All she has to do is clarify. But she refuses.<br /><br />The meaning is clear to any who reads it:<br /><br />It would be better (for him on judgment day & apparently for the church in the present) that he not be alive than to teach as he does. <br /><br />Personally, I think she meant to communicate to her readers that it is time to take action to remove him from Dubuque Seminary (as when the Layman's editors title letters about me, "Time to Chuck Shuck" as being time to remove me from the ministry). <br /><br />I personally don't think she meant to incite violence against him, even as she was very insensitive in her choice of words. <br /><br />Some have thought she meant to incite violence. Given the history of people who do violent things out a warped sense of doing God's will, I can see why they are nervous. <br /><br />One would have to be obtuse not to see the lack of sensitivity in Carmen's post. One would think she would want to distance herself from being perceived, even wrongly perceived, of advocating any kind of harm to the allies of LGBT people. <br /><br />There are, as Gene mentioned on her blog, unstable people who would take her post as marching orders. <br /><br />A simple statement clarifying what she meant would end misunderstanding. <br /><br />John Shuck<br />Elizabethton, TNJohn Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-78694519742134867012009-11-25T06:10:17.336-08:002009-11-25T06:10:17.336-08:00commenting, arguing, or otherwise trying to engage...commenting, arguing, or otherwise trying to engage Shuck's people, seems to me to be an exercise in casting one's pearls before swine. Their god does seem to be their stomach. Ad hominem attacks seem to be what everyone, to a person, experiences, if one dares to say, "But God says..." As for Shuck, personally I would refrain from even engaging him, unless one is willing to 'tilt at the windmill' of disciplinary charges for heresy in the pcusa, talk about your fantasies. But thats just me.<br /><br />dmDave Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08217094060036455319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-52668683265598415802009-11-24T23:22:57.884-08:002009-11-24T23:22:57.884-08:00Forgot to add, I'm glad you don't think th...Forgot to add, I'm glad you don't think that theological conservatives are monsters. Remember that I carefully worded it as "you seem to like to imagine", because I wasn't sure what you really thought; I was only responding to an impression that you make by what you say. Apparently the impression you give is not true.<br /><br />And I forgot to add my town.<br /><br />Debbie Berkley<br />Bellevue, WADebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01755638934636386391noreply@blogger.com