tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post5685488800435130179..comments2024-03-12T08:04:47.314-07:00Comments on Naming His Grace: Asking questions about the word of God, the affirmation of sexual sin, and the Lord's SupperViola Larsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-5149018173187752892009-01-23T11:27:00.000-08:002009-01-23T11:27:00.000-08:00While I agree with a lot of what you are saying Ma...While I agree with a lot of what you are saying Mac, I actually see some of the "officials" as Evangelical where a few years ago they were not. I think this is an extremely important time in the PCUSA because right at this point we can turn either way.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-30294446786757486362009-01-23T06:23:00.000-08:002009-01-23T06:23:00.000-08:00Sorry.Mac McCartyDowningtown, PASorry.<BR/><BR/>Mac McCarty<BR/>Downingtown, PAMachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02067844122370343813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-1216551919524258922009-01-23T06:22:00.000-08:002009-01-23T06:22:00.000-08:00I agree with your definition of "official approved...I agree with your definition of "official approved position." When the public face of the denomination becomes that of faithlessness, people will leave their old homes and migrate to faithful venues.<BR/><BR/>The official face will never be determined by the "unanimous vote of all members" because we are presbyterian in governance, not congregational--although as a dear pastor friend of mine often says, "All presbyterians are closet congregationalists. at heart."<BR/><BR/>The presbyterian system of governance is republican, not democratic, in form. Thus, while a majority of the overall membership can be of one mind (as evidenced by the repeated refusal within the presbyteries to get rid of ordination standards), it is the "representatives" in the governing bodies that make many of the decisions. If the "minority" can capture the representation at governing bodies, the "official policy" becomes the public face of the denomination.<BR/><BR/>The PC(USA) is well on its way to that result. The "minority" has captured the bureaucracy of the denomination. I agree that it is unlikely, at least this time around, that "b" will be removed, but the GA that sent that amendment to the presbyteries also elects the GAPJC. I think your second scenario, amendment of the Book of Order by judicial fiat, is more likely to occur in the not too distant future.<BR/><BR/>And that is why the bureaucrats in Louisville are willing to spend $600,000 in one small northeastern presbytery to prevent one congregation from leaving the denomination without their property. (That coercive attempt worked out well for the PC(USA)--now 80 or so people are left with a large and expensive physical plant to maintain while 300 faithfully attend to the Word in borrowed surroundings.)<BR/><BR/>When the majority finds that their denominational face has been hijacked, many will leave. Some, tied to property, will not and that is Louisville's only hope.Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02067844122370343813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-60385596363584404092009-01-19T14:36:00.000-08:002009-01-19T14:36:00.000-08:00Hi Viola,I am an ordained PCUSA, Confessing, New W...Hi Viola,<BR/><BR/>I am an ordained PCUSA, Confessing, New Wineskins, currently without-a-call pastor.<BR/><BR/>Adel Thalos<BR/>Snellville, GAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-85289925447446856902009-01-19T13:02:00.000-08:002009-01-19T13:02:00.000-08:00I keep forgetting people need to sign their full r...I keep forgetting people need to sign their full real name and city and state.<BR/>Viola Larson<BR/>Sacramento, CaViola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-72187088495654943432009-01-19T12:20:00.000-08:002009-01-19T12:20:00.000-08:00Adel,First a question for you. I see you are a Pre...Adel,<BR/>First a question for you. I see you are a Presbyterian Pastor. Are you PCUSA, PCA or EPC or something else? Also I see you are going to the same Seminary one of my Son- in-laws went to when he got his PHD. He now teaches N.T. at Toccoa Falls College. <BR/><BR/>"The official approved position?" and that is what I mean, and by that I mean that the new amendment b is passed which I am almost certain will not pass. And also that the highest PJC allows to stand the ordination of a practicing homosexual which they have not yet done.<BR/>And I have in mind a Church in my area whose session allowed that the pastor's could officiate at gay civil weddings when it was legal in California and one in SF that did do weddings.<BR/>I don't think I want to address gay unions since that is not my subject.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-38682769850464684252009-01-19T11:22:00.000-08:002009-01-19T11:22:00.000-08:00Thank you Viola for bringing this discussion to th...Thank you Viola for bringing this discussion to the fore.<BR/><BR/>These are some very hard questions and one's that all Bible-believing evangelicals within the PCUSA will have to wrestle with.<BR/><BR/>I have a question for you.<BR/> <BR/>You stated, "...if a whole denomination states, which they have not yet done, that sexual deviancy is not sin...".<BR/>What do you mean by the "whole denomination"? Does this mean the official approved position? Does this mean a unanimous vote of all members? <BR/>How about official approval of ordained pastors and elders officiating and approving of "gay unions"? Is this not the current official stance, approved by both GA and GAPJC? <BR/>In your opinion when does this line get crossed? Is it when the BOO is changed so that you have an official line that approves of homosexual acts? <BR/><BR/>How about other considerations other than communion? How about involvement in any level of Presbytery meetings in ordinations?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-86854258350565135562009-01-19T07:24:00.000-08:002009-01-19T07:24:00.000-08:00I keep returning to the book of Jude constantly an...I keep returning to the book of Jude constantly and other people I talked to tell me the same thing.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-70412979877607016642009-01-19T07:02:00.000-08:002009-01-19T07:02:00.000-08:00You have courage for bringing this up. I have lon...You have courage for bringing this up. I have long found the book of Jude to be the primary test for this situation:<BR/><BR/>http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%201:1-%2012;&version=31;Bill Crawfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05748091341766506913noreply@blogger.com