tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post1547916475644340919..comments2024-03-12T08:04:47.314-07:00Comments on Naming His Grace: Heresy in a hymnViola Larsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-35757155185048117702013-01-13T13:20:48.215-08:002013-01-13T13:20:48.215-08:00Hi Betsy,
Perhaps I wasn't clear what I meant...Hi Betsy,<br /><br />Perhaps I wasn't clear what I meant about not attending any church that used a Presbyterian USA hymn book was those published before the latest one. I have already looked at the material offered at that site.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-70283550406700849362013-01-13T13:19:32.831-08:002013-01-13T13:19:32.831-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-41119477292779606852013-01-13T11:42:08.391-08:002013-01-13T11:42:08.391-08:00I completely disagree with your analysis of this h...I completely disagree with your analysis of this hymn and what it intends, but I'm actually commenting just to clarify that the reason you haven't seen any Presbyterian churches using the hymnal Glory to God is that IT HAS NOT BEEN PUBLISHED YET. The fact that you haven't seen it doesn't say anything about its popularity or level of acceptance among congregations. No one is singing from it because it's not yet out. I, for one, serve a church that sings from the 1955 red hymnbook, but am a fan of the 1990 blue hymnal and am excited about the variety of music, songs, theology, and images contained within the forthcoming Glory to God hymnal.<br /><br />If you would like to know more factual information about this hymnal, please see http://www.presbyterianhymnal.org/Betsyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12626660821101501150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-72364274876885084952012-04-16T19:24:12.686-07:002012-04-16T19:24:12.686-07:00At one service this past Christmas season we sang ...At one service this past Christmas season we sang the carol Good Christian Men Rejoice, which is now called Good Christian Friends Rejoice. When we had finished singing, the man sitting next to me turned and whispered, "They took out the men and left in the ass." <br />That appropriately describes most of the changes in the PCUSA and the hymnals.Chas Jaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-33017888333162344702012-04-16T09:32:49.542-07:002012-04-16T09:32:49.542-07:00I love poetry and think these "lyrics" a...I love poetry and think these "lyrics" are more a poem than hymn lyrics; but, having said that, this thing, as poetry, doesn't really make sense. It is a kind of heresy, not only against the Christian faith, but against reason. The best poetry is not only a work of imagination but also of sense.dennistheeremitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10801567321734091885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-79463678395812049132012-04-15T19:17:09.424-07:002012-04-15T19:17:09.424-07:00Dan
Thank you for letting us know the history of ...Dan <br />Thank you for letting us know the history of the song. <br />Several thoughts: hymns are meant to be more than poetry-they are praise to God, often also prayer to God. Poetry isn't so much metaphor as it contains metaphor. It is meant to be very concrete, that is there should be nothing that is extra but what takes you to exactly the thought of the poet. And metaphor allows the hearer to grasp some fuller understanding of the subject. One can’t use everything that comes with the metaphor. <br /><br />But notice these metaphors. “Old aching God.” There is nothing there to hang the truth of God’s word on. The words do not expand our understanding of who God is on the contrary if they lead them in the wrong direction. <br />And young growing God—here the noun is misplaced. We know that the adjectives would be right for Jesus Christ, fully human, fully God. But not for just the noun God. Once again there is nothing to hang biblical truth on. The words “young growing God” is a god of the process theologians, the god of Whitehead and Cobb but not the God of the Bible.<br /><br />I once started a paper for a Fuller class with “Death is all metaphors, shape in one history.” The lines are by Dylan Thomas a wonderful poet who had no belief in Christ or heaven. He expressed exactly what he believed with dark but beautiful words. But a Christian song writer, poet or those who publish hymn books must use their metaphors carefully—they must be biblical not pagan images.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-57878718482547195632012-04-15T16:59:59.954-07:002012-04-15T16:59:59.954-07:00This thread is reminiscent of Reformation era disc...This thread is reminiscent of Reformation era discussions of transubstantiation in which people were condemned as heretics for daring to interpret Jesus' statement "This is my body... This is my blood" in any other than a literal way. The hymn in question was the product of a class at a Presbyterian seminary on hymn-writing in which students were invited to explore unconventional metaphors of God. To say "Old, aching God" isn't to say God is old and tired. (Obviously it can't be taken literally because the next metpahor is "young, growing God"!) Hymns are poetry and poetry is metaphor. A metaphor is an invitation to a deeper understanding of something by juxtaposing it with something that it both is and is not. Just because Jesus said "I am the door" (John 10:9) doesn't mean he is made of wood.Dan Saperstein, Greeley, COnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-71479438200301314722012-04-14T10:33:03.143-07:002012-04-14T10:33:03.143-07:00*sigh*... thanks Vi. Why is it we can't learn ...*sigh*... thanks Vi. Why is it we can't learn from all the things the church went through in the first three centuries of her existence? We've been here and done that. It isn't new or bold or creative. Its just lame. Whoever said something about Athanasius is right.<br /><br />dmDave Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08217094060036455319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-84643094059174909552012-04-14T10:19:17.185-07:002012-04-14T10:19:17.185-07:00FWIW ... the church I attend did not move from the...FWIW ... the church I attend did not move from the Red hymnal when the Blue one came out. <br /><br />The reason, the way they made the PC(USA) more P.C. <br /><br />Removed <i>Onwards Christian Soldiers</i> because it was too militaristic, even though the thought was that we are evangelists warring against evil.<br /><br />Changing other hymns to remove references to the Kingship of God.<br /><br />However, it didn't move into heretical hymns or songs. I fully suspect that this new <b>PC</b>(USA)will be ignored here also.<br /><br />We are going to have to get a new hymnal in a year or so, but we'll probably go for the Celebration Hymnal.Reformed Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15582319442292078422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-34854319089412397372012-04-14T09:03:55.113-07:002012-04-14T09:03:55.113-07:00Charles just the opposite of docetic Christology. ...Charles just the opposite of docetic Christology. One must keep the two natures together in order to say anything about death or growing. Jesus Christ, fully human, fully God, died. Jesus Christ fully human, fully God, grew. But one cannot separate out God and say God grew or God died.<br /><br />It is Wren who is writing in a docetic manner.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-76082284020192310222012-04-14T08:55:20.670-07:002012-04-14T08:55:20.670-07:00Charles: To say that God grew or learned from his ...Charles: To say that God grew or learned from his earthly life and ministry is to deny and obliterate the distinction between the Creator and his creation. We are constantly learning and growing, but what orthodox Christians have always believed is that God is eternal, all-knowing and unchanging. He is the same "yesterday, today and tomorrow." The fact that God became one of us and was fully human is, indeed, a great miracle. However, the incarnation cannot be understood apart from the reality that Jesus was also fully God, not something less that or other than God. The docetists denied the human nature of Jesus, but your argument seems to be denying the divine nature of Jesus. The first Chapter of John's Gospel is a good corrective to any notion that Jesus was not fully God. The Nicene Creed is also worth a read in terms of affirming the orthodox, historic doctrine of the incarnation.Peter Larsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-74696660302833672582012-04-14T08:10:55.284-07:002012-04-14T08:10:55.284-07:00Thanks Viola for bringing this one hymn to light t...Thanks Viola for bringing this one hymn to light to expose it for what it is, and that is to say not very much. As if what you presented from the hymn was bad enough the first line of the second verse starts with "Strong Mother God..." enough said.<br /><br />After the last hymnal that they changed the words to This is my Father's World to an Arbor Day tribute I have been highly suspect of all activities in the PCUSA.<br /><br />I intend to go though this "book" with a fine tooth comb and if it contains to much politically correct, gender neutral nonsense then we might end up with another denominations hymnal in our pew.<br /><br />Mary <br />Gallatin TNMary Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10978849622269965455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-2579972667778074872012-04-14T08:00:10.646-07:002012-04-14T08:00:10.646-07:00eYou say that Jesus Christ grew, but God did not. ...eYou say that Jesus Christ grew, but God did not. Did God die? I believe you are advocating a docetic Christology, which separates the human and God so much that God did not truly experience human life.Charles Hedricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-69550016814619551952012-04-14T05:44:30.855-07:002012-04-14T05:44:30.855-07:00This idea of God being anthropomorphized as young ...This idea of God being anthropomorphized as young or old is more the product of human imagination than of revelation. God is indeed the ancient of days, but this means he is timeless and eternal, not decrepid or senile. And the idea of God "aching" is not at all consistent with Isaiah 40:28: "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom." The idea of God being aching, old, puny and feeble is not Biblical at all but, in fact, shrinks and reduces the Almighty down to our size and makes God human like us - a creature rather than Creator. I think it was Barth who said of liberal theology that for them, God is just saying "man" in a louder voice. However, God is not just a larger or more powerful version of us. Far from it. Go read Revelation 4 or Job Chapters 38-41. The incarnation does not change any of this. Yes, Jesus was fully human and clothed in our humanity but at the same time he was fully God, one with the Father, the Ancient of days, the great I AM...the one greater than Moses, Solomon and the Temple...and nothing less than that. I think much of our theological decline and confusion can be traced to the fact that we have lost any understanding or knowledge of the God revealed in the Bible who is not at all like us but HOLY, HOLY, HOLY. Until we recover this truth, we will continue to stumble in darkness and confusion...worshipping a false god that we invent and imagine.Peter Larsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-32215241140533808392012-04-14T05:07:29.693-07:002012-04-14T05:07:29.693-07:00This heretical hymn has been the favorites of libe...This heretical hymn has been the favorites of liberals for quite some time now. It is in the UCC, Disciples, and other hymnals. It is heresy. It is not our task to "bring names" by which we may address God (that is idolatry in Scripture). It is our task to learn how God names himself, and how he wants us to address him. Our Lord Jesus Christ revealed God to us by the name of his choice, Father. Hence we are baptized and blessed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The "Bring Many Names" genre of hymns reveals how Protestant Liberalism has grown weary and bored with the God revealed in Holy Scripture.Walter L. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214919096691017927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-82785703466776641062012-04-14T01:44:20.712-07:002012-04-14T01:44:20.712-07:00Ah but that is just the point. Dressed up in a man...Ah but that is just the point. Dressed up in a man suit-no way! you can say Jesus Christ grew-that is the complete Incarnation, but you cannot say God grew-that tears the human from God. That has nothing to do with the immanent incarnational view of God. By the way, God was immanent before the incarnation, meaning he was concerned and close to creation.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-81832797062633610962012-04-14T01:32:22.452-07:002012-04-14T01:32:22.452-07:00Sorry, I forgot:
Doug Hagler
Dalton, OH
(though ...Sorry, I forgot:<br /><br />Doug Hagler<br />Dalton, OH <br />(though my Google account says this too)Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-4659264729960016172012-04-14T01:31:46.916-07:002012-04-14T01:31:46.916-07:00This hymn is just taking a more immanent, incarnat...This hymn is just taking a more immanent, incarnational view of God than you prefer. It isn't heresy - it's core Christian theology. So often people back away from really acknowledging the incarnation, which is sad. It's like Jesus is just God dressed up in a man-suit temporarily, never meaningfully experiencing real suffering or human frailty. Clearly this view speaks to you - it doesn't speak to me, and I don't think Christianity requires it.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.com