tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post1038898653846197530..comments2024-03-12T08:04:47.314-07:00Comments on Naming His Grace: University Presbyterian, in Sacramento: learning the difference between EPC and PC (U.S.A.)?Viola Larsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-48950062966963227172016-01-23T10:52:02.448-08:002016-01-23T10:52:02.448-08:00It is only through the blood of Jesus that anyone ...It is only through the blood of Jesus that anyone is saved, not through religion, etc...<br />John 3 (v.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. There is no salvation except through the blood of Jesus<br />3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”<br />3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”<br />4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”<br />5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. ”9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”<br />16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.Charlene Callhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03486964745396412868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-11385040649231400372016-01-23T10:37:00.378-08:002016-01-23T10:37:00.378-08:00Posted in 3 post: I looked online (not sure I coul...Posted in 3 post: I looked online (not sure I could have worded it so elegantly) for a response as to God receiving a young child into heaven when they are to young to have an understanding as to sin, putting their faith in Christ and repentance, etc... Here is the post: If a baby, infant, young child, or toddler dies before they can know Jesus Christ, where do they go? We are all born into sin but can babies go into the presence of the Lord since Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved (Acts 4:12)? What does the Bible say is the fate of those young ones who die before they have had a chance to hear the gospel? What about those with severe mental retardation?<br />Born into Sin - All humans are born into sin at birth (Psalm 51:5). Even though they are incapable of understanding the gospel at birth, like every one of us, they too come into this world in a sinful state at birth and in fact, even in the womb (Psalm 58:3). Since we are born into a sinful state, what about the young child, toddler, infant or baby that dies before having a chance to place their faith in the only name given to us whereby we might be saved (Acts 4:12)?<br />In the first place, no one really seeks after God (Rom 3:11). There is not a person that has ever lived that is righteous or seeks after God on his or her own, with the exception of Jesus Christ Who is both Man and God (Rom 3:10-12). Our good works are not good enough to be saved, despite the perceived innocence of babies (Isaiah 64:6). Humans just naturally gravitate toward the tendency to sin because we were born this way. We inherited the sinful nature from the first man, Adam (Rom 5:12,16,18). We are constrained to be in a state of sinfulness until someone can be made sin for us. Fortunately, this happened through Christ Jesus because, “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor 5:21). So the good news is that there is hope, but it is hope only for those who can comprehend the gospel of Jesus Christ and His work at Calvary. Then where does this leave babies who die in infancy? Where do they go?<br />Do Babies Go To Heaven - What baby can know that they are in a sinful state and that they are separated from God by their sins?Charlene Callhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03486964745396412868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-64732355693480713652014-10-08T21:18:45.399-07:002014-10-08T21:18:45.399-07:00Thank you Viola for your response and I didn't...Thank you Viola for your response and I didn't mind getting in line behind your great granddaughter. A good choice on your part. My only comment is that I still believe that someone can respond with trust after death. I can think of no Scripture that would contradict this. Even if in this life, for whatever reason, they were not capable or willing to see or believe in this love. Since God's love never gives up or gives out, it would make sense that God wouldn't quit, even after death. I still do not accept the "trust God" answer about he young Jewish boy. I do not accept that this child is in hell simply because they did not know or hear. And if it is possible for God to save someone who never hears of Jesus, then clearly this is a possibility that can be extended to anyone, even those of another religion. But, it will be Jesus who saves, because he is the exact representation of God in every sense. In essence, it is God who saves, not Christianity, not a religion, because God was in Jesus, doing the work. So many other fun things to talk about but hard to do in this forum. Thanks for your thoughtful responses. We disagree on many things, but I respect anyone who takes theology seriously as you do. I continue to learn and grow, and I'm sure my journey is not over. God bless you Viola. <br /><br />BobBob Azzaritonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-92123129145915371742014-10-08T19:32:36.637-07:002014-10-08T19:32:36.637-07:00Bob, I believe your question is basically about th...Bob, I believe your question is basically about the justice of God. <br /><br />(Sorry I had to wait through a plumber’s visit, dinner, and a great call from Molly one of my great granddaughters, before answering the question—but it also deserves a thoughtful answer.)<br /><br /> So first, you are setting up a scenario that is hard to answer without more context. But here is the best I can do.<br /> <br />Biblically we are told that we are all appointed to die and after that the judgment. And we know that God both loves and is just, in fact God’s judgment is a part of his love. But God in his love and his judgment works in ways we often do not know nor see. All that the thief on the cross did was acknowledge the innocence of Jesus, his Lordship and asked to be remembered and he was assured a place in heaven. All that Zaccheus did was climb down out of the tree when Jesus invited himself to lunch. His promise to give back what he had taken was undoubtedly a reaction to Jesus’ gracious invitation to eat lunch with him.<br /><br />What I am saying is in the real world, not a hypothetical one, we often do not know what happens between the soul and Christ before the moment of death. That is why the answer you think is not a good answer is a good answer. “We must trust God.” Because the question really is about the trustworthiness of God. He will not do evil, so we leave it there trusting him.<br /><br />But your question is bigger than that—you want it to cover those who have rejected Christ in this life, as an adult. The Bible does not give any room to that. In my last posting I put up a verse about that. Here it is: <br /><br />For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the Judgment that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:16-21)<br />Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-49150688531333125722014-10-08T14:05:35.822-07:002014-10-08T14:05:35.822-07:00Yes. I am saying there is nothing in the Bible th...Yes. I am saying there is nothing in the Bible that would prevent someone from responding to the message of God's love in Jesus after death. But this is not universalism. At least not the classic definition. Classic universalism says there is no hell and everyone will go to heaven when they die. In other words, death is the end of choice. I do not believe that. So now that we have that cleared up, are you going to answer my question? Does the 8 year old Jewish boy go to hell for eternity because he didn't ask Jesus into his heart during his lifetime? Do you believe your eternal destiny is sealed as soon as you take your final breath in this life?Bob Azzaritonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-50710771301976961392014-10-08T10:51:05.552-07:002014-10-08T10:51:05.552-07:00Bob, sorry, but it still sounds like you are talki...Bob, sorry, but it still sounds like you are talking about universalism. Let me ask it in a different way if I can. Are you saying that if a person dies without having Jesus as their savior they can still claim his gift after death? Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-71165026604790370122014-10-08T08:06:19.403-07:002014-10-08T08:06:19.403-07:00Viola, It is way to early to already be questionin...Viola, It is way to early to already be questioning my honesty and integrity. I told you that I was answering you questions. For years I explained salvation just as you did. But it bothered me that I didn't have an adequate explanation for the 8 year old Jewish child killed in the Holocaust. As a young person when I asked that question, the answer I'd receive was simply, "We must trust God." That was a cop out. But no one seemed too concerned that we had a belief system that would require us to send this child to hell for all eternity. Now, I completely agree with everything you have said about salvation since they are mostly Bible quotes. First, I would suggest first that salvation is mostly about this life. Eternal life understood as a life free from guilt and shame, rather than a ticket we receive that lets us into heaven when we die. This emphasis creates a skewed way of viewing myself and others in the world. Our only difference in thinking is that evangelicals believe you must have this conversion experience before you die or else it is too late and you will go to hell. In my view, this idea changes everything about the meaning and practice of salvation. It also alters the way I view the church and the world. Hell, rather, is for anyone who does not wish to be in the presence of a loving God who accepts and receives everyone on the basis of his mercy and grace in Jesus. What Jesus did on the cross he did for all people of all cultures, religions and classes. No one is outside the loving action of God in Jesus Christ. If I persist in saying no to God's love, God will not force his love on me. If he did, it would not be love. But he will also not take it back for all eternity. And the same love and same appeal and the same cross reaches to me beyond the grave as it does before. So now you have my answer. But, speaking of integrity, I still don't have yours. Do you agree with this evangelical belief that if you do not make a decision for Christ before you die, you will be in hell for all eternity? And what do you think happens to the 8 year old Jewish child? Special provision? Or is that child being also tortured by God as she was in the concentration camp. At least in the camp, the torture was limited by her death.Bob Azzaritonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-89607441340112413672014-10-07T23:56:55.033-07:002014-10-07T23:56:55.033-07:00Bob, I find it amazing that you have now refused t...Bob, I find it amazing that you have now refused to answer two questions that I have asked. I believe the Bible teaches that salvation is found only in Jesus Christ. And when I say salvation, I mean many things held together, reconciliation to God, forgiveness, given new life in Christ, being united to Jesus in his death and his resurrection. I believe we have now been given eternal life that can never be taken away from us.<br /><br />Try John 10:27-"My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand."<br /><br />I believe that if we reject the great salvation offered to us we will spend eternity without God. and yet I believe it is the Father who draws us to the Son, and the Holy Spirit who illuminates his word giving us understanding. <br />I hope that all answers your question and I hope you will have enough integrity and honesty to answer my question. If not there is no more reason for discussion.<br />Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-54052755688469776302014-10-07T23:18:18.475-07:002014-10-07T23:18:18.475-07:00Interesting response Viola. Why would you hesitate...Interesting response Viola. Why would you hesitate to agree with such a clear, straight forward evangelical belief? Doesn't the evangelical message say that one must come to faith in Christ before death or risk spending eternity in conscious torment in hell? This question and discussion is part of my answer to your question.Bob Azzaritonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-56866875163481529112014-10-07T22:55:03.535-07:002014-10-07T22:55:03.535-07:00Bob, two things. I think in all fairness you shoul...Bob, two things. I think in all fairness you should answer my question first. Secondly, what do you mean by "correctly"?Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-77298956950064113492014-10-07T22:38:45.794-07:002014-10-07T22:38:45.794-07:00Hi Viola, Here is my question. Do you believe the ...Hi Viola, Here is my question. Do you believe the Bible teaches that unless you correctly put your faith in Jesus Christ before you die, by confessing you sin, and asking him into your heart, you will spend eternity in hell?Bob Azzaritonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-13589032880867287802014-10-07T20:05:29.261-07:002014-10-07T20:05:29.261-07:00Bob, thanks for reading my post and leaving a comm...Bob, thanks for reading my post and leaving a comment. but let me ask you a question. Do you believe all will gain eternal life through Jesus Christ even those who believe in different gods?Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560220615271337359.post-38421978959295607352014-10-07T19:43:10.160-07:002014-10-07T19:43:10.160-07:00Thank you Viola for your blog post on our church a...Thank you Viola for your blog post on our church and my sermons. Although you misunderstand much of my point of view, I appreciate you listening and commenting (for example, I am not a universalist). I can think of nothing more important and invigorating than theological discussion, even when there is some disagreement. I'd be happy to meet sometime and give you more background on my point of view. If not, I appreciate your thoughts and response.Bob Azzaritonoreply@blogger.com